Killed in the Crossfire in Texas?

[JustSomeGuy]

The fifth paragraph of the article linked below brings up the possibility that some of the casualties in the recent Texas school shooting may have been killed by law enforcement during the "25 minute shootout" with the perpetrator.

If that's the case, I think some intensive remedial training is in order for those officers at the very least.

Texas school shooting: Shootout between gunman and deputies lasted 25 minutes - CNN

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[clearconscience]

Maybe, but those guys are trained to go in and stop a threat.
They don't know who the bad guy is, I can't imagine having to rush in that situation and go balls out to stop an immedite threat on people's children.

These are trained SWAT or SEAL team operators. They are city employees who get minimal training for the chaotic situations they have been getting into.

God Bless the first responders.

 

[Geardo]

Neither cops nor CCWers get enough training. Figure if you go to the range 2x a month for 2 hours ( which would be a LOT) by most "normal" standards, that is only 48 hours a YEAR. Cops get like 12 IIRC?

Most people go maybe 1 hour a month.

Most of that is standing still slow firing.

Just by adding an hour of dry fire a week, you can 2x-5x your training time.

Really we should all be getting a couple professional classes a year and working on our skills more than we do.

Myself Included!

 

[clearconscience]

True!
Someone used to have the quote on their profile,
"Train at the speed of a gunfight"

I've been waiting to make some pvc target stands and some cardboard targets and practice drills.
Moving, shooting and changing targets, different distances, etc

 

[fxdc]

It's coming from CNN.....
Enuff said!!!!

 

[Alexx1401]

It's coming from CNN.....
Enuff said!!!!

I thought EXACTLY the same thing. As soon as I opened the link and tried to read it I closed it. I would not trust anything they said any more. If they reported it was going to get dark tonight I would want to check it

 

[justcuz]

Maybe, but those guys are trained to go in and stop a threat.
They don't know who the bad guy is, I can't imagine having to rush in that situation and go balls out to stop an immedite threat on people's children.

These are trained SWAT or SEAL team operators. They are city employees who get minimal training for the chaotic situations they have been getting into.

God Bless the first responders.

Trained to go in? The Parkland school RSO (sworn deputy with a gaggle of training) who stayed outside, lied on official report(s), resigned next day, retired the day after, and is living happily after collecting 104K a year.

The LEs waited +/- 30 minutes to respond at sandy hook, and other shootings...

 

[justcuz]

I thought EXACTLY the same thing. As soon as I opened the link and tried to read it I closed it. I would not trust anything they said any more. If they reported it was going to get dark tonight I would want to check it

TX Sheriff, after he stated his brave deputies exhanged gunfire with the shooter while the deputies were outside the building, seemed quite uneasy when the reporter asked the question during the news conference broadcast today.

Kinda like the story regarding the changing events regaled by the LV sheriff; or the Sheriff involved in Parkland's shooting, RSO & two other LE's stories; or the LE overseeing the Pulse shooting; or the SanB shooting, or....

 

[L84Cabo]

Wow, I didn't realize there was a 25 minute standoff with the shooter. Autopsies will certainly show if any of the kids were killed by "friendly fire." And I realize how horrible it is if one of the rounds from the police struck a student. But this is the hard reality of a gunfight. They have to engage the shooter to get him to stop. And even if they injured or killed a student in the process, the odds are good that they saved more lives than had they not engaged him.

But what is also a possibility is that one or more of the students who died, were alive and bled out during the 25 minute standoff. These things are just horrible and messy all the way around.

 

[clearconscience]

Trained to go in? The Parkland school RSO (sworn deputy with a gaggle of training) who stayed outside, lied on official report(s), resigned next day, retired the day after, and is living happily after collecting 104K a year.

The LEs waited +/- 30 minutes to respond at sandy hook, and other shootings...

I said they are trained to go in, I didn't say they would.

I'm pretty sure their tactics changed around 2012ish to rush into mass shootings to eliminate the threat asap, and/or draw fire from innocents.
They learned that most mass shooters are cowards. When faced with the first amount of resistance they will give up or opt out.

 

[nwslopoke]

My daughter is 3 years out of high school. I haven't forgotten, watching the clock, until she was due home. So I empathize with parents. There are multiple things going on. From a parents stand point I feel zero is being done to prevent these events and the effort made to react to them are largely misplaced.

Leaving the emergency plans for the school board to design or approve hasn't been working. From the little insight I have seen, academics have their beliefs that don't reflect reality. The tactics need to be set by those with an honest understanding and the goal for survivability and not prioritizing the fear of children. People are scared when the don't comprehend the event and they don't know what to do. There is so much off the shelf technology available from Walmart to Amazon, government Think Tanks, super computers, special ops forces and alphabet agencies already on the pay role. If the kids are really a priority, why doesn't it look like it?

Of course the best answer is usually the simplest. Allow staff that wish to be armed, be trained and armed. This latest murderer as well as the Florida murderer didn't want to die. The number of dead and injured with the firearms used is interesting. Waiting to confirm the results. Time will tell.

 

[titsonritz]

I'll wait for the autopsy report. 25 min is a long time, lucky there aren't more casualties.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

My daughter is 3 years out of high school. I haven't forgotten, watching the clock, until she was due home. So I empathize with parents There are multiple things going on. Form a parents stand point I feel zero is being done to prevent these events and the effort made to react to them are largely misplaced.

Leaving the emergency plans for the school board to design or approve hasn't been working. From the little insight I have seen, academics have their beliefs that don't reflect reality. The tactics need to be set by those with an honest understanding and the goal for survivability and not prioritizing the fear of children. People are scared when the don't comprehend the event and they don't know what to do. There is so much off the shelf technology available from Walmart to Amazon, government Think Tanks, super computers, special ops forces and alphabet agencies already on the pay role. If the kids are really a priority, why doesn't it look like it?

Of course the best answer is usually the simplest. Allow staff that wish to be armed, be trained and armed. This latest murdered as well as the Florida murderer didn't want to die. The number of dead and injured with the firearms used is interesting. Waiting to confirm the results. Time will tell.

Exactly this!

 

[Ura-Ki]

Like Ibhave posted before in other threads, I have personally seen what a well designed and plemented security system in a very very large high school can do, and even better, it dosnt bother the students at all, and this all took place before the two latest shootings! I would imagine some adjustments have been made that improve security even more!
This entire project had a budget of 8 million for this campus, and the entire program came in well under that goal, leaving a surplus to be used to upgrade as needed! This was done in the very heart of Ultra Liberal left Portland at one of the state's largest high schools, and has become the standard for all schools in the county and state!
I observed the training cycles when this was all put together, and we ran drills against the system and security personal, it worked flaweslly when every one on the team did their job! No teachers or security personal are armed with any thing lethal, but PPB has 2 permentally assigned officers on sight who are armed, and the security office houses a quick access safe that contains additional weapons should the need arise! How ever unlikely that would be, it's the final layer to be used!

So, how many millons have we spent trying to ban guns? How many millions have we spent protesting? How many millions have we spent on trying and failing to protect our kids? How many millions have the New York Billionarea spent to buy elections? How many millions have we spent on school security th at dosnt work? How many millions have we spent on employees who refuse to answer back during a shooting? All tbose millions COULD have been spent to employ working school security that actually has the best chance to stop a shooting before it can even start! Seems simple right? Why have we not done more? There are an aweful lot if folks who also saw this system go live and they all know it works, so why the hell are we not doing this nation wide?

 

[po18guy]

Surprisingly, in the city where I worked, the school district hired sworn, armed, uniformed school police officers decades ago. They handled almost all crimes on campus, which was a great help to a limited department. They were also able to receive info about kids demonstrating odd behavior, or incidents that were planned.

Once Columbine occurred, even my small department in Podunk initiated training for active shooter situations. We used a local elementary school so that the physical layout would be genuine and familiar. Done correctly, such situations test the fortitude of department members, as they are essentially rushing into a firefight with extremely limited information and no time to plan. If the shooter is not currently firing, one must determine his location from hysterical teachers or students as they are fleeing. And, the shooter could be one of them.

As to making contact, once ganged up and bursting into the room, you have to immediately I.D him - a student dressed like any student - from all the others. Granted he probably still has the weapon in hand, but maybe not. A through-and-through shot to stop him could easily penetrate the classroom walls and cause a casualty in the adjacent room. In the chaos, staff and students are not going to remember the sequence of things. These things are simply diabolical.

 

[Alexx1401]

I'll wait for the autopsy report. 25 min is a long time, lucky there aren't more casualties.

Yes and all I could think of was if they were fighting with the scum he was not free to shoot more kids. The norm before has been for LEO's to be told to wait outside while the shooter had his fun. Glad some are finally going after them. Just a damn shame he was taken alive.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

People will panic in situations like this...
Not to forget to mention that the shooter will not be easy to ID...
Bullets also do weird things at times...
Aiming while taking fire or under the real stress of a actual firefight can be difficult...
At times the mind "sees" what it wants to see , not what is really there...

Any of the above can make a "friendly" casualty ...Something to think about and talk about and even train for...
But the above is also difficult to train for or have control over.

Not meaning to sound callous , but just blunt and realistic...
People can die when in a firefight...sometimes it is not the "bad guy" ...but it can be a innocent victim.
You can ( and should ) train as realistically as possible and train for as many "What if's" as you can...so as to keep the mistakes to a minimum.
One must remember that many things that happen in a firefight will be beyond your control and there is simply nothing that you can do about them.
Andy

 

[Geardo]

I said they are trained to go in, I didn't say they would.

I'm pretty sure their tactics changed around 2012ish to rush into mass shootings to eliminate the threat asap, and/or draw fire from innocents.
They learned that most mass shooters are cowards. When faced with the first amount of resistance they will give up or opt out.

Unfortunatly not many people have enough balls to actually charge in.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Neither cops nor CCWers get enough training. Figure if you go to the range 2x a month for 2 hours ( which would be a LOT) by most "normal" standards, that is only 48 hours a YEAR. Cops get like 12 IIRC?

Most people go maybe 1 hour a month.

Most of that is standing still slow firing.

Just by adding an hour of dry fire a week, you can 2x-5x your training time.

Really we should all be getting a couple professional classes a year and working on our skills more than we do.

Myself Included!

Most Police and Sheriff Deputies might get active shooter training once a year, depending on the agency. Qualifications, which sorely miss the mark for street use is anywhere from 2-4 times a year...with nothing in between.

You nailed it...by adding an hour or so of dry weapons manipulation a week...even a few minutes a week will make a very noticeable improvement.

Most training can be done without firing a shot. Most of what we do with a firearm, is manipulation...load, unload, malfunction clearance, low ready, come up on target, simulate multiple targets, moving etc., all need to be done dry to get technique and re-train the brain for proper use.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Unfortunatly not many people have enough balls to actually charge in.

Exactly! This is very important to remember, even cops are human and they have the same thoughts and feelings about potentially getting shot, and or having to shoot some one that we have Training must address these things in a manor that will give these officers the best chance!
When we did the viewing prosess of security and police officers and deputies, wh had a very difficult set of requirement to put forth and we also needed to ensure additional on going training as a part of the program.
The very best tool we discoverd was the human element, having our security personal and our LEO vested in that school, making them personal, connecting with the students and staff in a frindly environment so that the security would have a really good report with the students. This allowed them to observe potential trouble and deal with it pro actively in such a manor that students would gain trust and respect! It was harder to get the right LEO to "fit in" and to mostly loose the "Cop Attitude" with out loosing the sence of authority and respect for the law. But the right people in place went far beyond expectations! Now they have the tools to actively observe students, positively interact with them, gain their trust and become the very first line of defence!