Killed in the Crossfire in Texas?

[MikeInOr]

Wow, I didn't realize there was a 25 minute standoff with the shooter. Autopsies will certainly show if any of the kids were killed by "friendly fire." And I realize how horrible it is if one of the rounds from the police struck a student. But this is the hard reality of a gunfight. They have to engage the shooter to get him to stop. And even if they injured or killed a student in the process, the odds are good that they saved more lives than had they not engaged him.

But what is also a possibility is that one or more of the students who died, were alive and bled out during the 25 minute standoff. These things are just horrible and messy all the way around.

Who is more at fault, the officer that kills a student accidentally in a shoot out or the officer that stands around outside doing nothing afraid to go into the school after the perp to keep the perp from killing more students?

If my daughter was killed as an innocent bystander by a cop during a school shootout I would be irate as a parent! I think the cop that stood around outside doing nothing got off way too easy though!

 

[DB is Here]

Unfortunatly not many people have enough balls to actually charge in.

If we changed the setting to a Mall for instance rather than a school we'd call in SWAT or wait until we had enough officers to go in and stop the threat. The real issue not hardening the target in the first place or having no one armed internally that could put down the threat.
As it stands you're asking for an officer (typically under trained) to enter, access, move from cover to cover and clear as they move...This is near impossible to accomplish w/o high level training and not much safer with a team of SWAT trained professionals.

Without hardening Schools or allowing teachers to be armed or placing a Cop at every school we're setting both Schools and Police up for failure...It's a no win scenario.

Ever wonder why Chicago or Detroit schools don't get shot up? They have hardened schools and metal detectors with one point of entry..It's not rocket science.

 

[DB is Here]

Who is more at fault, the officer that kills a student accidentally in a shoot out or the officer that stands around outside doing nothing afraid to go into the school after the perp to keep the perp from killing more students?

We all are at fault!!! We allow the Schools to dictate how our most precious thing (Our Children) will be protected. We allow our Schools to remain as "Gun Free Zones" and expect a Cop to be "The Savior". We as a populace have either got to stand up to School boards and Teacher Unions and demand they protect our kids. Our Society is broken and we push everything on Cops to solve. It's our problem to solve IMO...Rant over.

 

[11Charlie]

..It's not rocket science.

This!! When will they learn its not that hard.

 

[Geardo]

If we changed the setting to a Mall for instance rather than a school we'd call in SWAT or wait until we had enough officers to go in and stop the threat. The real issue not hardening the target in the first place or having no one armed internally that could put down the threat.
As it stands you're asking for an officer (typically under trained) to enter, access, move from cover to cover and clear as they move...This is near impossible to accomplish w/o high level training and not much safer with a team of SWAT trained professionals.

Without hardening Schools or allowing teachers to be armed or placing a Cop at every school we're setting both Schools and Police up for failure...It's a no win scenario.

Ever wonder why Chicago or Detroit schools don't get shot up? They have hardened schools and metal detectors with one point of entry..It's not rocket science.

I won't say it isn't hard. I won't claim I have the nuts to do it. But cops get a lot of legal protection, special rules in places like CA, and hero worship from a lot of people. I would hope they would be willing to grab their plate carrier and AR and head in to fight 1, maybe 2 bubbleguming teenagers! To save a bunch of kids lives.

I agree the best bet is harden the schools and arm the teachers, but even then not many will actually be willing to CCW, maybe 1/school?

Cops need to be willing to get in there, and they need intense frequent training and good equipment to make sure they survive.

 

[11Charlie]

Cops need to be willing to get in there,

We need to take into account that most cops are willing and are not cowards like the florida cop. I am guessing that if they follow protocol then they are told to wait for back up and maybe even swat. I'm not sure but that is my guess. I know a buddy of mine is a cop and he would rush in with out a second thought if he was able. As would I.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Cops cost money, a pair of officers would cost the tax payers 300k per year in salaries training and equipmnt! Then you have the challenge of finding the right kind of personality in your cops, and you need willing volunteers who are actually qualified and fit the above personality requirements. All of those things need to be addessed and yet there is the unknown of wheher or not one of them will loose it and not go in to try and stop a shooter!
Think about the requirements, being willing to possably kill a teenager, some one you may know and have interacted with! That' got to be hard to swallow!
Hardening the school is one piece of a complicated puzzle, but is actually the easiest thing to do! Active electronic security with a highly trained person at the controlls takes things even further and allows accurate Intel to be gathered and shared. This was a major gain. In the school I helped out with, this allowed security to accurately report on a situation, give a good description of the suspect, AND current location, all the while that data is being recorded and broad cast to first responders via I-pad! We also brought in drones that could be used both inside and out, and those drones have markers to help guide first responders accuratey, quickly, and quietly!

 

[DB is Here]

Cops need to be willing to get in there,

I believe most are, When I was active I believe I would have, hell I'd do it now. Sadly, I feel the more Society & Elected Officials refuse to solve these real problems it will all be placed at the feet of our LEO's.

 

[justcuz]

Please do not forget the sovereign concept of Qualified Immunity our good folk in blue enjoy, unless egregious activity they are held judically harmless for their actions, including being bad shots or failing to enter.

Oh wait, highest court of the land has stated the folks in blue do not have to respond to any citizen's emergency, someone saying about having the good folks having cajones

 

[Cerberus Group]

We need to take into account that most cops are willing and are not cowards like the florida cop. I am guessing that if they follow protocol then they are told to wait for back up and maybe even swat. I'm not sure but that is my guess. I know a buddy of mine is a cop and he would rush in with out a second thought if he was able. As would I.

When I was active with the training, it took on a few different scenarios. First, lone Officer...if backup was close, and I do mean close...as in a few seconds, then the first waited and off they'd go. Much longer than a few seconds, and there was no wait.

The go kit consisted of your rifle, magazines, and a IFAK+. + meaning it could treat a few people, but wasn't a full medical kit. I had a thigh rig that snapped into by belt, whether I was uniformed or plain clothes. The thigh rig held two AR mags and the IFAK+ goes in the opposite thigh pocket and off I'd go. From suit up to entry was less then 30 seconds, 20 seconds was the target...or the Officer had to get themselves better organized.

The training was simple...hunter and killer. There was no training for commands such as "Drop the gun", unless they were contained or separated from everyone...and the threat(s) were given two commands to stop and drop...any hesitation, down they'd go.

 

[11Charlie]

When I was active with the training, it took on a few different scenarios. First, lone Officer...if backup was close, and I do mean close...as in a few seconds, then the first waited and off they'd go. Much longer than a few seconds, and there was no wait.

The go kit consisted of your rifle, magazines, and a IFAK+. + meaning it could treat a few people, but wasn't a full medical kit. I had a thigh rig that snapped into by belt, whether I was uniformed or plain clothes. The thigh rig held two AR mags and the IFAK+ goes in the opposite thigh pocket and off I'd go. From suit up to entry was less then 30 seconds, 20 seconds was the target...or the Officer had to get themselves better organized.

The training was simple...hunter and killer. There was no training for commands such as "Drop the gun", unless they were contained or separated from everyone...and the threat(s) were given two commands to stop and drop...any hesitation, down they'd go.

Thank you.

 

[EPS]

This is the left media trying to cover the A$$ for saying there should not be armed TEACHERS or security .
The two cops that engaged him with in 4 minutes and from the time he started was 25 minutes .they are saying it was a gun FIGHT for 25 minutes B.S. HOW MANY SHOT GUN SHELLS AND 38 REVOLVER RELOADS WOULD IT TAKE TO HAVE A FIREFIGHT FOR 25 MINUTES.
THERE JUST TRYING TO SPIN IT .
Yes it was probably 25 minutes for the other cops (SWAT) team to clear the school .
But the actual Shooting was done in the first 4 minutes .
I don't buy it THIS STINKS

 

[EPS]

I'M 6'1" 240 lbs and I don't think I could carry that many shotgun shells to have a firefighter for 25 minutes that hundreds of lbs of shells

 

[EPS]

I said they are trained to go in, I didn't say they would.

I'm pretty sure their tactics changed around 2012ish to rush into mass shootings to eliminate the threat asap, and/or draw fire from innocents.
They learned that most mass shooters are cowards. When faced with the first amount of resistance they will give up or opt out.

Yes now the first police on scene are to go in and engage the shooter ASAP.
THE GUY IN FLORIDA DIDN'T DO THAT

 

[EPS]

I know mom's with no training that would rush in unarmed to stop someone from hurting there kids .
Don't F@-&_$ with Mama Bear

 

[titsonritz]

First off, there was no 25-minute firefight, there was a standoff/negotiation, during which time no shots were exchanged and that resulted in the murderer's surrender.

 

[titsonritz]

I know mom's with no training that would rush in unarmed to stop someone from hurting there kids .
Don't F@-&_$ with Mama Bear

That was tried at Sandyhook and they got smoked. Would it have been a different story had they been armed? I believe so, but we'll never know. And that is the point. WHY THE F*** HAVEN'T SCHOOL TEACHERS/ADMINISTRATORS BEEN ARMED SINCE PURDY MURDERED CHILDREN WITH A AK47 THREE DECADES AGO???

 

[EPS]

That was tried at Sandyhook and they got smoked. Would it have been a different story had they been armed? I believe so, but we'll never know. And that is the point. WHY THE F*** HAVEN'T SCHOOL TEACHERS/ADMINISTRATORS BEEN ARMED SINCE PURDY MURDERED CHILDREN WITH A AK47 THREE DECADES AGO???

Even with this last one the teacher that was three doors down from where the shooting started and he was a ex MARINE mmmmm
Gee I wonder what would have happened if he had a gun to fight with .
But instead he had to bunker up and PROTECT the kids in his class .
There probably would not have been 4 minutes it would have been more like 30 seconds before the shooter was engaged . time is the main thing in this WHEN SECONDS COUNT THE POLICE ARE MINUTES AWAY

 

[EPS]

First off, there was no 25-minute firefight, there was a standoff/negotiation, during which time no shots were exchanged and that resulted in the murderer's surrender.

Yes we know that but the media is saying it was a FIREFIGHT and kids where killed in that I KNOW THERE WAS NO 25 MINUTES FIREFIGHT

 

[EPS]

I'm so done with the B.S. you want your kids safe at school there will have to be big changes and they don't start with GUN CONTROL