Jewish community leaders gather to support Israel but

[Mikej]

I do not expect anyone to take what I have said as gospel. Basically everything has corroborating sources and historical references that can be found if you look for it. They are not always easy to find, as there are many interest groups that work hard to suppress it, but it is all still out there.

For example, one could argue that the citation of the number of Arabs in Israel vs. the number of Jews in Arab nations is not accurate. The Arab nations do not like counting their Jews, and the Jews in those nations do not like being counted. It can be argued that there are, in reality, far more undocumented Jews in Arab nations than we know of, thus making the factoid false.

I would argue, however, that even if this were true it still proves the point I was making. The Jews in Arab nations hide, because they have something to hid from (namely continued expulsion or genocide), while the Arabs in Israel are happy to stand up an be counted, and indeed even contribute to the national defense right along side their Jewish brethren. IT highlights a fundamental difference in how Israel treats minority ethnicity vs. how the Jews are treated as minorities elsewhere. My question to people who do not like Israel is how do you justify the double standards, laying all blame for inter-ethnic strife at the feet of Israel, expecting them to give everything in the pursuit of a fix for the problem, and letting the Arab nations off with a 100% free pass and zero criticism at all?

This can go right back to things like demanding Israel accept a "two state solution." I have news for people; the two state solution was the solution, already happened, and is the status quo today. When Israel was created it was done so from British Judea (or Jordan, or trans Jordan, depending on when/who you ask). This territory was ceded back to the native populations, the Arabs and the Jews, as two nations; modern Israel and Jordan. Israel for the Jews, Jordan for the Arabs. When people advocate for a "two state solution" today, that is actually advocating for a three state solution, one where Israel gives up even more land so that the Arabs who did not want to integrate into the Israeli state and who did not want to migrate to their own Arab state can have "their own land" outside of "Jewish rule" or something.

Yet no one ever advocates for a "right to return" for any Jews who were expelled from Arab lands. There are no calls for Jordan to create a separate Jewish state from their territory, or let Jews return and reintegrate into Jordanian society. Nor are there call to let Jews return to the other Arab nations from which they were ejected; Egypt, Iraq, Iran etc. etc. No, all the calls for "compromise" and "accommodation" are placed 100% at the feet of Israel who is the only one people claim can "fix" the whole situation.

I ask again (to the general audience) how is this expectation that Israel must do everything, while the rest of the Arab nations must do nothing, not in itself an expectation rooted in its own form of antisemitism?

Smart man ^^^. I can't find it now, but I watched a video by Ben Shapiro that laid out the history of the Jewish People. Was not a pretty story. I'm a simple man, I don't understand why people don't just let people be themselves. Too many horrible crimes against mankind because of religion.

 

[CLT65]

Too many horrible crimes against mankind because of religion.

No offense intended, just a minor point- I have to disagree about "because of religion". I'd say more accurately "because of ideology, tribalism, and human nature". Ambitious leaders and greedy people use religion and ideology to control others and gain wealth.

It's always us vs. them, regardless of ideology or religion. People fight and kill each other over religion over the centuries, even in the same religions - Catholic vs. Protestant, Shiite vs. Sunni, etc.. And yet more people were slaughtered in the 20th century by atheistic ideologies (communism and fascism) than all others combined.

If you could have John Lennon's utopia (Imagine) and rid the world of all religion, people would be fighting and killing each other over what form of atheism was best. I know it's fashionable, especially here in the Pacific Northwest, to blame the world's ills on religion, but it's not that simple. The real problem is people. Individually we can be good, smart, and decent (sometimes), but in large groups we're usually pretty stupid...

 

[Mikej]

No offense intended, just a minor point- I have to disagree about "because of religion". I'd say more accurately "because of ideology, tribalism, and human nature". Ambitious leaders and greedy people use religion and ideology to control others and gain wealth.

It's always us vs. them, regardless of ideology or religion. People fight and kill each other over religion over the centuries, even in the same religions - Catholic vs. Protestant, Shiite vs. Sunni, etc.. And yet more people were slaughtered in the 20th century by atheistic ideologies (communism and fascism) than all others combined.

If you could have John Lennon's utopia (Imagine) and rid the world of all religion, people would be fighting and killing each other over what form of atheism was best. I know it's fashionable, especially here in the Pacific Northwest, to blame the world's ills on religion, but it's not that simple. The real problem is people. Individually we can be good, smart, and decent (sometimes), but in large groups we're usually pretty stupid...

I have to give that to ya'!

I grew up dead center in the heart of Mormonism. I've been shocked at what I've heard a few times from good Christians, concerning Mormons. I don't hold any bad feelings of individual religions really. Except for those that still actively want to KILL people because they are of a different religion. See how F'ing stupid/evil that sounds? I tend to not care one way ore the other, as long as they don't push themselves on me I won't push my thoughts on them.

 

[CLT65]

I have to give that to ya'!

I grew up dead center in the heart of Mormonism. I've been shocked at what I've heard a few times from good Christians, concerning Mormons. I don't hold any bad feelings of individual religions really. Except for those that still actively want to KILL people because they are of a different religion. See how F'ing stupid/evil that sounds? I tend to not care one way ore the other, as long as they don't push themselves on me I won't push my thoughts on them.

Fair enough; my point is just that it's not religion per se that makes people hate and kill. Tribalism is a deeply rooted part of who we are, inherent to human nature. Christians who use their religion as an excuse to hate have a warped version of Christianity, in my opinion. I'm not Mormon, but have had several Mormon friends in my life. I'm not Muslim, but have a good Muslim friend. Most people are just people, and we get along pretty well so long as you generally avoid conversations about politics and religion. Then again, I grew up in the PNW, it's probably different in other areas. I'm also secure enough in my own beliefs that I don't feel any need to try to force my views on others. Yeah, I've been shocked and disappointed a few times over the years, at things I've heard from "good, solid Christians", but I've taken it as the personal failings of an individual, not a reflection of a faith as a whole.

I understand full well that there are many people who have been deeply hurt and embittered by organized religion. Believe me, I have my own frustrations, and I don't wear rose-colored glasses. For every person who uses religion as an excuse to hate and kill, there are many others quietly giving, helping, and healing in the name of their faith. When a person focuses on the bad, you see it everywhere, but when you start looking for the good too, you realize that not everything is bad.

 

[lucusloc]

I think you're beyond that. Based on the data in your responses, the conclusion about you is that you're malevolent, retarded, or a malevolent retard.

Never attribute to malice what can be adequately attributed to ignorance. The history of Israel is deliberately obfuscated from the general public. Our public learning and media institutions will not disseminate or report on the factual history of Israel, and so the general population is woefully ignorant of the issues. Just look at how we talk about it; "two state solution" "right of return" "from the river to the sea." All of these things mean something, but no one can really say what that is.

Quick poll as an example; how many people here already knew that the "two state solution" was the status quo today? How many people could have named Israel's Arab sister state, where the "Palestinians" were supposed to "return to" at the same time all the Jews were being exiled to Israel? How many people knew that today's "two state solution" was moving the goalposts on Israel, who already got the smaller patch of land in the original deal? I am willing to bet not many, even of the people who support Israel, and virtually none of the people who hold a position in opposition.

If you do not know the true history, and only know to believe the lies, is it any wonder that many come to the conclusion that Israel should be destroyed?