If not now when, if not us than who?

[elsullo]

Ah but that's where private industry is at it's finest! Confused? let me esplain, when private industry fails traditionally it dies and something takes it's place and either succeeds or fails add rinse repeat.

When government fails what take it's place? nothing, it just continues on the same model. Now we have the government supporting the failure of private business when it should let them die so something that works can replace it, instead we are going to a government model where private sector gets bailed out and it's a huge recipe for fail.

I don't like bailing out Wall Street either, but if the huge Wall Street banks had all failed then the entire flipping economy would have collapsed, maybe for good. The world international economy would have STOPPED, at least as far as the U.S.A. is concerned. If the BUSH administration had not created the TARP Fund bailout of Wall Street at the least millions would have starved---there are human consequences to big-business failures! Now that the financial structure has regained health most of the TARP funds have already been paid back by the big banks---at interest!

If General Motors and Chrysler Corp. had been allowed to fail not only the thousands of auto workers would lose their jobs, but the cascade of further business failures from all of their suppliers and vendors, and THEIR suppliers and vendors, would have meant loss of jobs of MILLIONS of people---and their poverty would have led to the decline of all of the other industries that fed and clothed and supplied all of those workers---literally a GREAT Depression. Instead, the government bought stock to prop up the automakers during their shortfall. Now those automakers are getting healthy again---and buying back their stock from the government. Soon enough the U.S. gummint will be paid off at a profit and out of the auto business.

When the security of MILLIONS of Americans is at stake, the government NEEDS to intervene if it can, and then get out (if it can.) Otherwise, if not helping citizens SURVIVE, what is the purpose of a government?...........................elsullo :huh:

 

[Karma]

You parrot the usual false arguments. Surprise: lawyers have strong unions (American Bar Association, state legal bars, etc.), and that's why they control the market and get paid a lot, while their clerks and researchers do all of the main work for much less money. It's not a free market by any means; it is structured and controlled by the rich.

Those who benefit the most from the entire infrastructure of society (the rich) should pay their FAIR share of taxes for their greater benefits. Since they profit from everyone's achievements the most, they can damn well pay the most taxes---and STILL have vastly more wealth than everyone else. Instead, they UNFAIRLY control the government to structure taxes so that they pay far less than what they ought to. It's that Golden Rule as always.

So, how is that wonderful free market working out for you? Lost your house yet?..............................elsullo

Eh, a lot of the housing crash was people living well beyond their means. People who are making 40k a year, can't really afford a $350k house, but everyone believed they were ENTITLED to live like they were wealthy, regardless of whether or not they were. If the lenders wouldn't have been pressured to lend unqualified people too much money, the free market would have regulated the housing market. That wasn't a failure of the free market system, it was a failure caused by manipulation of the free market system.

Lawyers are self regulated basically. How many politicians do you see at the higher levels who did not begin as lawyers. That is part of the reason things work as they do.

I do agree with you about paralegals and assistants doing most of the work. That is another problem with manipulation of the free market system. Paralegals and assistants can easily do much of the work that you have to pay a lawyer the big bucks for. If a law degree wasn't REQUIRED by the government the free market could do it's job. If qualified paralegals could do simple form work, the price would significantly come down, and lawyers couldn't charge their price. Open competition is what regulates prices that can be charged. It works well, until the government puts laws in place that stifles competition, thus causing a false market.

What we need is less regulation, not more.

 

[dmancornell]

Instead, the government bought stock to prop up the automakers during their shortfall. Now those automakers are getting healthy again---and buying back their stock from the government. Soon enough the U.S. gummint will be paid off at a profit and out of the auto business.

I lol'ed hard.

The only people who made out with a profit are the UAW scumbags who were given huge amounts of shares at a government mandated rock bottom price after the bondholders got strong-armed out of the way. The UAW is making a profit at the initial offering price (payoff for the 2008 election).

On the other hand, the stock will have to hit over $100 per share for the government investment to pay off. Which will never happen since GM will run out of money again shortly and require another bailout.

I find it amusing that you think it's the government's job to save Detroit by screwing everyone else. How FAIR.

 

[Father of four]

Where did Pontiac go? Wasn't that a line of car?

 

[gehrheart]

So, how is that wonderful free market working out for you? Lost your house yet?..............................elsullo

Yep market kinda sucks right now. What goes up must go down, ride the wave to the next high.
My house, great! kinda small, but not to bad. Feeding a family of 4 and a car payment on a mech-nic wage, just was smart and bought what I could afford! ****, I even buy my family their own health insurance so i don't have to bleed others dry.

What a concept, being responsible for myself, only having what I can afford.



so yea, free market is doing well for me. Wish I had more money to buy more guns, but hey, I take care of my own family.....

 

[elsullo]

I lol'ed hard.

The only people who made out with a profit are the UAW scumbags who were given huge amounts of shares at a government mandated rock bottom price after the bondholders got strong-armed out of the way.

I find it amusing that you think it's the government's job to save Detroit by screwing everyone else. How FAIR.

What you are actually referring to is the rescue of the Union workers' PENSIONS. The automakers wanted to just declare bankruptcy and wipe out their obligations to pay the pensions, and use that owed money that was set aside for pensions for their corporate profit. Gee, the evil government stopped that mass robbery, how eeeeeeevilllllllll.........................elsullo

 

[dmancornell]

What you are actually referring to is the rescue of the Union workers' PENSIONS. The automakers wanted to just declare bankruptcy and wipe out their obligations to pay the pensions, and use that owed money that was set aside for pensions for their corporate profit. Gee, the evil government stopped that mass robbery, how eeeeeeevilllllllll.........................elsullo

It doesn't matter where the money went. The money illegally went to the UAW by screwing all the bondholders whom should have gotten first dibs on the corpse of GM. Is it a surprise GM is still underfunded? No sane investor would deal with a company knowing the government will screw them next time around and give preference to the union parasites again.

Those pensions should damn well be wiped out. A big factor in GM's downfall is the idiot management agreeing to absurd union terms. But since the union got onboard, they really ought to go down with the ship.

In life there's usually something called consequences, unless you bribe the government with pay-to-play money for an illegal bailout. The only robbery victim here is the US taxpayer and former GM bondholders.

 

[gehrheart]

I'd rather have some ineffeciancy and fraud than the way it was before SS and medicare. Since I actually paid attention when my grandparents told me about the old days I learned a thing or two.
You don't like my multitude of examples of course but here's another personal one. I'm a commercial fisherman and the only reason we have a viable fishery in the Pacific is because of federal and state joint efforts to regulate the industries. Back before such government efforts, it was a free for all and now commercial fishing, such as cod, in the Atlantic is dead. Since I and the crews of my partner boats know what consequences could be, we're glad there is oversight so that we'll have a fishery to pass on to the next generation.

So in other words, you cant.

trlsmn was nice enough to point out when the private sector fails is goes away and a new one is formed. In the real world a free enterprise can not sustain long with inefficiency and fraud running rampant with out government intervention (generally our tax dollars poured in).

our sea is not state controlled it is part of the federal government to over see it, and yes they failed horribly on the east coast.

you give no real examples and the one you give are with excuses as to why it is OK that they are not run right. It's a poor argument and bad logic.
It's OK that they take MY money and waste it because in the end a very small percentage went to help some one....:huh:
How about more people become responsible for them selfs.
How bout we take the feds out of everything they are currently (and illegally) involved in. All this Help I am forced into sure as heck makes it more difficult to be responsible to my own family. They mean a whole lot more to me then your sick captain. (not meaning disrespect, just fact). I sure as heck do not need big brother making decisions for me.

I paid attention to my grandparents as well. From them I learned how to take care of myself and my family with out all that gubmit interference. I have learned from them what it was like.
I listened.

I learned.

I work.

 

[bugeye]

Eh, a lot of the housing crash was people living well beyond their means. People who are making 40k a year, can't really afford a $350k house, but everyone believed they were ENTITLED to live like they were wealthy, regardless of whether or not they were. If the lenders wouldn't have been pressured to lend unqualified people too much money, the free market would have regulated the housing market. That wasn't a failure of the free market system, it was a failure caused by manipulation of the free market system. ...... cut

What we need is less regulation, not more.

The lenders were pressured, but not by the government as in the right wing myth, but by the investment banks and their clearing houses that were buying any mortgage they could find, bundleing into bonds, getting then over rated, and then selling them to investors. Most of the smart players knew the end was going to come years before it did, but they kept the bubble going while buying CDS (credit default swaps) that would pay off when these bonds went bust. The number one company to get bailout money was AIG, the worlds largest insurance company, who was on the line to pay out about 80 billion from held CDS when Lehman Brothers went bust. Magnatar a wonderful 'free market' financial outfit specialized in buying the worst and most risky aspects of these mortgage backed bonds and then bought many CDS to cover them when things went bust. I doubt this is your idea of an unregulated free market but these are its action, and we are left to live with the results of this. It worked fine for outfits like Goldman and Magnatar that made vast sums on money by helping create the boom while betting on the bust, while the middle class lost.

By the way the CDS market is unregulated and the players don't disclose who is holding what, and at the time of the bust it was worth about 1,000 trillion dollars equivalent to the value of all goods and services produced in the world in about 18 years. This is the sort of insanity you get from unregulated financial markets, the inmates free to run the asylum are buying and selling useless contract insurance each claiming it's and asset while is not backed by a 'set aside' penny. The dems in congress were pretty gutless in trying to fix this problem but the repubs acted as if there was no problem at all and fought even the bit of reform that came out. It like our parties are sell out 1 and sell out 2. Of course the financial industry gifted congress with nearly 1 million dollars per member in campaign contributions during the 'reform' process. But I guess you'd just consider this another aspect of the free market.

 

[elsullo]

It doesn't matter where the money went. The money illegally went to the UAW by screwing all the bondholders whom should have gotten first dibs on the corpse of GM. Is it a surprise GM is still underfunded? No sane investor would deal with a company knowing the government will screw them next time around and give preference to the union parasites again.

Those pensions should damn well be wiped out. A big factor in GM's downfall is the idiot management agreeing to absurd union terms. But since the union got onboard, they really ought to go down with the ship.

In life there's usually something called consequences, unless you bribe the government with pay-to-play money for an illegal bailout. The only robbery victim here is the US taxpayer and former GM bondholders.

"Union parasites"? I presume you mean all of the people who actually did all of the work designing, building, and selling the cars, building up the company with their skills, labor and creativity? The real parasites are the stockholders who demanded too high a dividend that robbed the companies of their operating capital. They also elected venal CEOs who allowed incompetant, overpaid executives to bleed the companies and make dumb decisions for what kind of cars to make, lame old-fashioned cars that did not sell well and wore out too soon. If all goes as well as it seems to be going, the US taxpayers will be repaid with interest. Bondholders lost out due to their own lazy supervision of how their investments were used, and they had CONSEQUENCES---but you know they will deduct their losses from their income taxes too.............................elsullo

 

[gehrheart]

yet if we kept to the traditional loans with out government backed guaranties, (HUD and the fanny-freedy debacles, ect..ect..ect..) the only people buying houses would be the one who could really afford it, with appropriate down payments, and with payments that were realistic for them. However gubmit had to step in and make it so almost any one could buy any house. So we see again a private sector going bad to worse with gubmit intervention. I bought my house with almost a third down, took a long time to save it, but did it.
so yes both parties had a big hand in its collapse, yet if there was no government intervention to begin with.....

I know i know, we should all have what every one else has, the government is there to make it all fair...why work for something when they will just give it to me.....

 

[AGCR]

So in other words, you cant.

trlsmn was nice enough to point out when the private sector fails is goes away and a new one is formed. In the real world a free enterprise can not sustain long with inefficiency and fraud running rampant with out government intervention (generally our tax dollars poured in).

our sea is not state controlled it is part of the federal government to over see it, and yes they failed horribly on the east coast.

you give no real examples and the one you give are with excuses as to why it is OK that they are not run right. It's a poor argument and bad logic.
It's OK that they take MY money and waste it because in the end a very small percentage went to help some one....:huh:
How about more people become responsible for them selfs.
How bout we take the feds out of everything they are currently (and illegally) involved in. All this Help I am forced into sure as heck makes it more difficult to be responsible to my own family. They mean a whole lot more to me then your sick captain. (not meaning disrespect, just fact). I sure as heck do not need big brother making decisions for me.

I paid attention to my grandparents as well. From them I learned how to take care of myself and my family with out all that gubmit interference. I have learned from them what it was like.
I listened.

I learned.

I work.

You seem to misunderstand the lesson here. The east coast fisheries are dead because private industry ran wild and the government left them alone. If the government had stayed out of it in the pacific, I wouldn't have work and the fisheries would have gone dry 30 years ago. In other words, government intervention is the reason I was able to buy a house and leverage myself into the lower middle class like many of my other maritime brothers and sisters. My examples are real because I live them.
I'm glad you listened to your grandparents. I feel like I got the best of both worlds since mine taught me to work hard but they also knew from the great depression that just having a work ethic isn't always enough.

 

[dmancornell]

"Union parasites"? I presume you mean all of the people who actually did all of the work designing, building, and selling the cars, building up the company with their skills, labor and creativity? The real parasites are the stockholders who demanded too high a dividend that robbed the companies of their operating capital. They also elected venal CEOs who allowed incompetant, overpaid executives to bleed the companies and make dumb decisions for what kind of cars to make, lame old-fashioned cars that did not sell well and wore out too soon. If all goes as well as it seems to be going, the US taxpayers will be repaid with interest. Bondholders lost out due to their own lazy supervision of how their investments were used, and they had CONSEQUENCES---but you know they will deduct their losses from their income taxes too.............................elsullo

LOL that's a good one. GM vehicles suck across the board. Only morons and government agencies buy them. Same thing really.

As for the stockholders and the management, you're right they were stupid, but only because the former invested in a corpse of a company and the latter actually signed agreements with union parasites.

Keep believing the government lies about GM's balance sheet. Better yet, back it up with action, go buy some GM stock. I'll check back in a couple years when it's all worthless.

 

[gehrheart]

You seem to misunderstand the lesson here. The east coast fisheries are dead because private industry ran wild and the government left them alone. If the government had stayed out of it in the pacific, I wouldn't have work and the fisheries would have gone dry 30 years ago. In other words, government intervention is the reason I was able to buy a house and leverage myself into the lower middle class like many of my other maritime brothers and sisters. My examples are real because I live them.
I'm glad you listened to your grandparents. I feel like I got the best of both worlds since mine taught me to work hard but they also knew from the great depression that just having a work ethic isn't always enough.

I agreed, the fed's missed the boat in the Atlantic. Yes I agreed with you.
That is one area, our sea's that the Fed do belong. I didn't say they were doing a great job.
Alas, my point. they fed do not do a very good job. It is way to top heavy and way way way to big.

I have spent most of my life living near in or on fishing areas. I have lived in what is left of the best areas left in Alaska. I get it.

Man you can twist things around so fast it is almost imposable to keep up.
Still hasn't answered the original question...
But I get what you are saying about the oceans..

 

[AGCR]

I agreed, the fed's missed the boat in the Atlantic. Yes I agreed with you.
That is one area, our sea's that the Fed do belong. I didn't say they were doing a great job.
Alas, my point. they fed do not do a very good job. It is way to top heavy and way way way to big.

I have spent most of my life living near in or on fishing areas. I have lived in what is left of the best areas left in Alaska. I get it.

Man you can twist things around so fast it is almost imposable to keep up.
Still hasn't answered the original question...
But I get what you are saying about the oceans..

I'm not trying to piss you off or be confusing. I don't relish a big government but I am highly aware that something needs to keep big corporations in check and people individually aren't so effective at that.
You're lucky to have seen the wild Alaska. I think if I knew I'd never troll off the Fairweather Range again, life wouldn't be worth living.
But, what did I miss here? You wanted to know what areas the Federal government is better at than private industry and while you may disagree with my examples, I submit that adequate care for the disabled and elderly, national defense, and protecting natural resources from overuse fit that criteria.

 

[gehrheart]

I'm not trying to piss you off or be confusing. I don't relish a big government but I am highly aware that something needs to keep big corporations in check and people individually aren't so effective at that.
You're lucky to have seen the wild Alaska. I think if I knew I'd never troll off the Fairweather Range again, life wouldn't be worth living.
But, what did I miss here? You wanted to know what areas the Federal government is better at than private industry and while you may disagree with my examples, I submit that adequate care for the disabled and elderly, national defense, and protecting natural resources from overuse fit that criteria.

Oh not pissed off at all sorry if that is how you took it. The examples you have given, from my opinion, are examples of where the fed's have not provided a good showing. Yes, care for elder's and disabled, while I do not have a problem in of its self, I have a real problem with the fact that most of the money that is pulled involuntarily from MY paycheck goes to government waste. A failure of that system. Protecting our natural resources, The failures abound. There have been success yes, but we hear in the news and with our own eyes the failures. National defense, has always from the beginning of the United States Of America been the job, a primary job, of our Federal government. What I am saying is that, while some of the intentions are good, the execution has been bad. Secondly, I believe in a strong republic, and buy that, the Fed's need to step down and let the states have their sovereignty back. I am not stating that the idea was bad, I am saying our Federal government in not or has not shown a capable means of managing it. If these were run in the private sector, these "business" would have failed. However they are run buy the Fed's that just keep adding money, our money after bad.
I am not wondering or asking about the ideology, good or bad, about the programs and agencies formed by the government, I am asking for one that is ran well, fiscally and organization. Only in a Federal ran program can keep running in the red.
In all, all these programs forced onto us and paid for buy us wrought with fraud and waste. Rather than correct the issues and problems, they just add more of our money to it. Now they want to run MY health care!!! I cant afford them to control my health care. I can't afford the waste that is already present in the system that is breaking our backs and our wallets. I will not argue the fact that the health care system is broken, believe me I know that. I have a family of four on a mech-nic wage. I cant afford to have my family on my employer provided insurance. I have sourced out my own. But I know I can't afford what they are trying to force down my mouth,


Again it to a matter of the intentions, it is a question of how they are ran.
I do not see any of our Federal agencies that are ran well. Once more I see a lot of them should not even exist, and the responsibility handed back to the states. Why are we as a people as a nation leaving behind the ideals of our Republic?





I wish I could still be in the panhandle, the most beautiful area I have ever seen.

 

[AGCR]

Oh not pissed off at all sorry if that is how you took it. The examples you have given, from my opinion, are examples of where the fed's have not provided a good showing. Yes, care for elder's and disabled, while I do not have a problem in of its self, I have a real problem with the fact that most of the money that is pulled involuntarily from MY paycheck goes to government waste. A failure of that system. Protecting our natural resources, The failures abound. There have been success yes, but we hear in the news and with our own eyes the failures. National defense, has always from the beginning of the United States Of America been the job, a primary job, of our Federal government. What I am saying is that, while some of the intentions are good, the execution has been bad. Secondly, I believe in a strong republic, and buy that, the Fed's need to step down and let the states have their sovereignty back. I am not stating that the idea was bad, I am saying our Federal government in not or has not shown a capable means of managing it. If these were run in the private sector, these "business" would have failed. However they are run buy the Fed's that just keep adding money, our money after bad.
I am not wondering or asking about the ideology, good or bad, about the programs and agencies formed by the government, I am asking for one that is ran well, fiscally and organization. Only in a Federal ran program can keep running in the red.
In all, all these programs forced onto us and paid for buy us wrought with fraud and waste. Rather than correct the issues and problems, they just add more of our money to it. Now they want to run MY health care!!! I cant afford them to control my health care. I can't afford the waste that is already present in the system that is breaking our backs and our wallets. I will not argue the fact that the health care system is broken, believe me I know that. I have a family of four on a mech-nic wage. I cant afford to have my family on my employer provided insurance. I have sourced out my own. But I know I can't afford what they are trying to force down my mouth,

Again it to a matter of the intentions, it is a question of how they are ran.
I do not see any of our Federal agencies that are ran well. Once more I see a lot of them should not even exist, and the responsibility handed back to the states. Why are we as a people as a nation leaving behind the ideals of our Republic?


I wish I could still be in the panhandle, the most beautiful area I have ever seen.

Yeah, I'm usually based out of Sitka, I love that town.
I'm on a mechanic wage myself right now, though fortunately just have my wife to support while she's in school.
Hey, there's nothing I hate more than waste. In fact right now for a gun safe (I knew I could bring this back around to firearms) I'm using a beautiful heavy steel locking cabinet that I rescued from a recent tax write off insurance scam at my old warehouse. They sent probably 30 tons of perfectly good equipment to the landfill and will have their accountants find a way to get the full value written off their taxes. I've personally seen that done in the medical industry and even through a major charity I used to work for which literally assisted corporations avoid taxes in the tens of millions. That's just some of the private industry corruption, most if it completely legal, that I've personally experienced. So when I start hearing about how great the private sector is, I get upset cos there's nothing I detest more than freeloaders. All those tax writeoffs will have to be made up for by the rest of us not smart or rich enough to wiggle out of it.

 

[gehrheart]

And please don't mistake my comments that the private sector is not with out the corruption and fraud as well. Why not, instead of creating all these government agencies, that is proven over and over that the fed's can not control them self, we create legislation to prevent and hold accountable the private sectors. ( and would have to enforce it as well.) This would also include some regulation over the litigation that would not doubt be present.

I am not against helping others, I am against an over bearing Federal government that needs a spanking and a whole lot of cuts. I donate regularly to to various charities.


Sitka, is the peanut butter pie still available? I spent most of my time in Ketch.

 

[AGCR]

And please don't mistake my comments that the private sector is not with out the corruption and fraud as well. Why not, instead of creating all these government agencies, that is proven over and over that the fed's can not control them self, we create legislation to prevent and hold accountable the private sectors. ( and would have to enforce it as well.) This would also include some regulation over the litigation that would not doubt be present.

I am not against helping others, I am against an over bearing Federal government that needs a spanking and a whole lot of cuts. I donate regularly to to various charities.


Sitka, is the peanut butter pie still available? I spent most of my time in Ketch.

Never had the pie but the milk shake spot still has about 70 flavors when I'm not wobbling back to the docks from the P-bar. I was only in Ketchikan only once, summer before when I picked up a gillnetter that I got to pilot down the inside passage.

 

[dmancornell]

One brief aside I find amusing is that my captain's father, the crusty fisherman I mentioned earlier who is on medicare now used to be so far right he drove around Seattle with a homemade sign on his back window reading "Government Converts Everything into Waste." He's still pretty conservative but medicare saving his family certainly changed the tune a little.

So the government robs a man for years and when he cannot afford his medical bills, they swoop in and pretend to save him? Brilliant!