If not now when, if not us than who?

[slingshot1943]

General VoNguyen Giap.
General Giap was a brilliant, highly respected leader of the North Vietnam military. The following quote is from his memoirs currently found in the Vietnam war memorial in Hanoi :

'What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready
to surrender! It was the same at the battle of TET. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated to notice your media was helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!'
General Giap has published his memoirs and confirmed what most Americans knew. The Vietnam war was not lost in Vietnam -- it was lost at home. The same slippery slope, sponsored by the US media, is currently underway. It exposes the enormous power of a Biased Media to cut out the heart and will of the American public.

Yeah and our libtarded media is once again helping the communist win the hearts and minds of the people, only this time it is the American people it is corrupting, it is this liberal/communist administration that is our real enemy. . . . against all enemies foreign and DOMESTIC!!!!

It's so obvious I don't know how they get away with it!

 

[Trlsmn]

It's so obvious I don't know how they get away with it!

<broken link removed> .

In psychology, Stockholm syndrome is a term used to describe a paradoxical psychological

phenomenon wherein hostages express adulation and have positive feelings towards their

captors that appear irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims,

essentially mistaking a lack of abuse from their captors as an act of kindness.

 

[AGCR]

The question was not local or state Government, the question was Federal gubmint.

I believe in a strong REPUBLIC, The Federal needs to be much much smaller and allow state sovereignty as it was designed to.



Federal, now what is you list.

Take a big one: fighting wars. Right now the US military is the most privatized in it's history and despite loud talk of how much more efficient and cost effective it would be, the Government Accountability Office has routinely discovered expenses have actually increased. Here's just one recent example: <broken link removed>

Not to mention the embarrassment of mercenary outfits like Blackwater, KBR and every Chilean or South African gun for hire whose exploits then end up making my country look bad.

 

[Karma]

The question was not local or state Government, the question was Federal gubmint.

I believe in a strong REPUBLIC, The Federal needs to be much much smaller and allow state sovereignty as it was designed to.



Federal, now what is you list.

This! The framers left us with guidance that make us into the greatest nation in the world. It is interesting that we are now self-destructing!

 

[glock.40]

ok that there is funny.

+1

 

[AGCR]

General VoNguyen Giap.
General Giap was a brilliant, highly respected leader of the North Vietnam military. The following quote is from his memoirs currently found in the Vietnam war memorial in Hanoi :

'What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready
to surrender! It was the same at the battle of TET. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated to notice your media was helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefields. We were ready to surrender. You had won!'

While Giap is correctly considered one of history's great generals, as an observer in this case his impression is hard to take literally. It has long been known that the North Vietnamese took more risks than were appreciated at the time by America, but remember that over six times as many bombs were dropped on Vietman, a tiny country, by the US than over all of Germany in WWII. The idea that two more days worth would have broken the will of a people who had been fighting foreigners for generations is completely absurd. Giap's misstatement gives convenient fodder to those perpetuating the myth that a few hippies high on pot somehow stopped the war.

 

[zeezee]

While Giap is correctly considered one of history's great generals, as an observer in this case his impression is hard to take literally. It has long been known that the North Vietnamese took more risks than were appreciated at the time by America, but remember that over six times as many bombs were dropped on Vietman, a tiny country, by the US than over all of Germany in WWII. The idea that two more days worth would have broken the will of a people who had been fighting foreigners for generations is completely absurd. Giap's misstatement gives convenient fodder to those perpetuating the myth that a few hippies high on pot somehow stopped the war.

OK, you are going to push aside the wisdom, knowledge and first hand experience for arm chair quaterbacking how many years later? Give me a break! They say the winner writes the history books and if so how is it that this general writes to claim to have actually lost?

 

[gehrheart]

Take a big one: fighting wars. Right now the US military is the most privatized in it's history and despite loud talk of how much more efficient and cost effective it would be, the Government Accountability Office has routinely discovered expenses have actually increased. Here's just one recent example: <broken link removed>

Not to mention the embarrassment of mercenary outfits like Blackwater, KBR and every Chilean or South African gun for hire whose exploits then end up making my country look bad.

The Military has always been Federal. That has always been the job of the Fed's, one of the few jobs the Fed's were originally given.

The question is rather simple, the failure to be able to answer easily, says something about your logic.


What privet industry has the Federal government taken over that is now better off?
Or for that matter, what has the Fed's created this last 100 years that is ran well?



I think a lot of people are wondering......





I just went and re-read your post again. That has nothing to do with the question, it is an attempt to divert into a new subject. I am not asking about the FED's giving up to the privet sector, I am asking about the fed's taken from the privet sector.
I will not be diverted, I will not be diverted, I will not be diverted, I will not be diverted............

 

[gehrheart]

While Giap is correctly considered one of history's great generals, as an observer in this case his impression is hard to take literally. It has long been known that the North Vietnamese took more risks than were appreciated at the time by America, but remember that over six times as many bombs were dropped on Vietman, a tiny country, by the US than over all of Germany in WWII. The idea that two more days worth would have broken the will of a people who had been fighting foreigners for generations is completely absurd. Giap's misstatement gives convenient fodder to those perpetuating the myth that a few hippies high on pot somehow stopped the war.

A few? Only a few huh?


Wow, your interpretation is kind of out there. I guess some will believe what ever they really want to know matter how they have to twist the logic to form that belief.

 

[Jamie6.5]

From Feb 2010:

No Public Option in Obama Health Care Plan - CBS News

The following quotes are from "your" article Zeke:

Republicans are virtually all opposed, and some Democrats who last year supported sweeping health care changes are having second thoughts in an election year.

The Republican stance:

"The president has crippled the credibility of this week's summit by proposing the same massive government takeover of health care based on a partisan bill the American people have already rejected," he said. "This new Democrats-only backroom deal doubles down on the same failed approach that will drive up premiums, destroy jobs, raise taxes, and slash Medicare benefits."

and:

"The fundamental point I want to make is the arrogance of all of this. You know, they are saying: 'Ignore the wishes of the American people. We know more about this than you do. And we're going to jam it down your throats no matter what.' That is why the public is so angry at this Congress and this administration over this issue," McConnell said.

Emphasis mine.
And since the article was written, the Dems lost control of the HoR, and their control in the Senate was weakened.
Why? Because they didn't listen to their constituents,...
Any more than the libs here refuse to listen to opposing views, and continue to spew the kool-aide they are fed by the socialist/progressive/liberal machine!

Democrats, who now hold 255 of the House's 435 seats, drew only one GOP ally when the House passed its health care bill, 220-215, last November. Since then, one Democrat who voted for the bill has resigned, one has died and a third plans to leave office Feb. 28.

Man, you progressive types really need to brush up on your reading and comprehension skills.
Thanks for the link refuting your opinion Zeke.
And AGCR and elsullo?

Just the facts ma'am,

Save your spin for IndyMedia, or some other kool-aide server.

 

[AGCR]

OK, you are going to push aside the wisdom, knowledge and first hand experience for arm chair quaterbacking how many years later? Give me a break! They say the winner writes the history books and if so how is it that this general writes to claim to have actually lost?

Absolutely. Giap clearly wasn't speaking for the mass of Vietnamese people who had been fighting invaders, as I said, for generations. He probably speaks to a likelihood that more bombing might have extended the war, but of course thanks to the confessions of people like William Macnamara, we now know that US officials knew the war was militarily unwinable long before that. Remember, the anti-war movement evaporated as soon as the draft ended. You're believing hippy propaganda that they were the ones who ended the war. I'm highly skeptical.

 

[AGCR]

The Military has always been Federal. That has always been the job of the Fed's, one of the few jobs the Fed's were originally given.

The question is rather simple, the failure to be able to answer easily, says something about your logic.


What privet industry has the Federal government taken over that is now better off?
Or for that matter, what has the Fed's created this last 100 years that is ran well?



I think a lot of people are wondering......





I just went and re-read your post again. That has nothing to do with the question, it is an attempt to divert into a new subject. I am not asking about the FED's giving up to the privet sector, I am asking about the fed's taken from the privet sector.
I will not be diverted, I will not be diverted, I will not be diverted, I will not be diverted............

I've helpfully and politely provided a quantity of examples where private industry has proved to be an absolute failure.
Of course social security is a good example. Back in the day before it existed, poverty among elders was a national embarrassment. My grandparents sure remember how much harder it was for old folks back then. Or medicare. One of the most crusty right wing old fishermen I know is now disabled and even he admits his family would be bankrupt without that. I'm talking about serious social support issues that help our elders and neighbors in need, what, are you expecting I'm going to say the post office is great or something? The PO pisses me off as much as anyone. Having a federal government is good for some things, like assisting the elderly and integrating racist school systems. Not so awesome for an efficient mail system. It doesn't have to be all one way or the other.

 

[yamahammer]

I fight everyday for what I believe in: a man ought to have the tools to defend his home and family...and he ought to have the tools he needs to defend himself at work and in the economy; that's right a union. The corporations are running over us and our nation because there is NOTHING out there to counter-balance their power. Unions, for all our problems, are the last line of defense.

You want to see your children be paupers, just keep supporting the globalized trade, US without manufacturing jobs, corporate America can do no wrong, weak unions, tax cuts for the rich economy our country has been supporting for the past 30 years. Reagan started this 'revolution' but its continued under both Dems and Reps.

Oh, and before you tell me its "the deficit". Realize, that's just the latest bait and switch. For example, if they just got rid of the Social Security Cap, it would be solvent, at full benefits, FOREVER. That's right: now every dollar you make OVER $106,000 in a year has ZERO Social Security taxes taken out. If they simply made everyone pay the same...millionaires pay the same on ALL their income as a mechanic: Social Security is FIXED...Forever.

So, yes, we must tackle our debt, but we don't have to do it with cuts to the working guy.

I couldn't agree more. Nicely said. I am proud to be a Union Ironworker, Local 29.

 

[gehrheart]

I've helpfully and politely provided a quantity of examples where private industry has proved to be an absolute failure.
Of course social security is a good example. Back in the day before it existed, poverty among elders was a national embarrassment. My grandparents sure remember how much harder it was for old folks back then. Or medicare. One of the most crusty right wing old fishermen I know is now disabled and even he admits his family would be bankrupt without that. I'm talking about serious social support issues that help our elders and neighbors in need, what, are you expecting I'm going to say the post office is great or something? The PO pisses me off as much as anyone. Having a federal government is good for some things, like assisting the elderly and integrating racist school systems. Not so awesome for an efficient mail system. It doesn't have to be all one way or the other.

Yes you have posted where the private sector has failed. If that was the question, i would have had my answer. But that was not what I Asked.
You do not seem to be able to provide an answer.

Social security? Yea, that is not a good example.

Medicare? Come on now really??

I, personally, would not have an issue with either, being pulled from my paycheck if I in fact knew that all of it was going for the good. However we all know it is not. Both are completely overrun with fraud, overspending, misuse and overbearing government interaction that seems to cause only more and more of the same problems.



I will take it at this point you can not answer the question. I know I can not think of one.
here one of these. A-Z Index of U.S. Government Departments and Agencies (A): USA.gov

Wow, that is shocking to see the list that just goes on and on and on......

 

[Trlsmn]

I've helpfully and politely provided a quantity of examples where private industry has proved to be an absolute failure.

Ah but that's where private industry is at it's finest! Confused? let me esplain, when private industry fails traditionally it dies and something takes it's place and either succeeds or fails add rinse repeat.

When government fails what take it's place? nothing, it just continues on the same model. Now we have the government supporting the failure of private business when it should let them die so something that works can replace it, instead we are going to a government model where private sector gets bailed out and it's a huge recipe for fail.

 

[AGCR]

Yes you have posted where the private sector has failed. If that was the question, i would have had my answer. But that was not what I Asked.
You do not seem to be able to provide an answer.

Social security? Yea, that is not a good example.

Medicare? Come on now really??

I, personally, would not have an issue with either, being pulled from my paycheck if I in fact knew that all of it was going for the good. However we all know it is not. Both are completely overrun with fraud, overspending, misuse and overbearing government interaction that seems to cause only more and more of the same problems.



I will take it at this point you can not answer the question. I know I can not think of one.
here one of these. A-Z Index of U.S. Government Departments and Agencies (A): USA.gov

Wow, that is shocking to see the list that just goes on and on and on......

I'd rather have some ineffeciancy and fraud than the way it was before SS and medicare. Since I actually paid attention when my grandparents told me about the old days I learned a thing or two.
You don't like my multitude of examples of course but here's another personal one. I'm a commercial fisherman and the only reason we have a viable fishery in the Pacific is because of federal and state joint efforts to regulate the industries. Back before such government efforts, it was a free for all and now commercial fishing, such as cod, in the Atlantic is dead. Since I and the crews of my partner boats know what consequences could be, we're glad there is oversight so that we'll have a fishery to pass on to the next generation.

 

[dmancornell]

"The first principle of revolution is to figure out who the real enemy is."......................elsullo

Found em, Marxists like you. You do realize the labor theory of value has been thoroughly debunked, right? Here's how it works: because you are a lazy union parasite, you don't get paid as much as a lawyer, even if you deem his work to be "useless", because the market decided his work is worth more than yours. Pretty simple.

Your ilk immorally utilize the faceless government to rob people of their wealth just so you can get off about making life "fair". Is fairness only for the approved classes of society? Sounds familiar, Lenin/Stalin and Mao tried that stunt. Worked real well.

Don't get me started on Warren Buffett, that man is a statist to the core. His father would disown that pandering SOB if he were still alive.

 

[AGCR]

One brief aside I find amusing is that my captain's father, the crusty fisherman I mentioned earlier who is on medicare now used to be so far right he drove around Seattle with a homemade sign on his back window reading "Government Converts Everything into Waste." He's still pretty conservative but medicare saving his family certainly changed the tune a little.

 

[elsullo]

Found em, Marxists like you. You do realize the labor theory of value has been thoroughly debunked, right? Here's how it works: because you are a lazy union parasite, you don't get paid as much as a lawyer, even if you deem his work to be "useless", because the market decided his work is worth more than yours. Pretty simple.

Your ilk immorally utilize the faceless government to rob people of their wealth just so you can get off about making life "fair". Is fairness only for the approved classes of society? Sounds familiar, Lenin/Stalin and Mao tried that stunt. Worked real well.

Don't get me started on Warren Buffett, that man is a statist to the core. His father would disown that pandering SOB if he were still alive.

You parrot the usual false arguments. Surprise: lawyers have strong unions (American Bar Association, state legal bars, etc.), and that's why they control the market and get paid a lot, while their clerks and researchers do all of the main work for much less money. It's not a free market by any means; it is structured and controlled by the rich.

Those who benefit the most from the entire infrastructure of society (the rich) should pay their FAIR share of taxes for their greater benefits. Since they profit from everyone's achievements the most, they can damn well pay the most taxes---and STILL have vastly more wealth than everyone else. Instead, they UNFAIRLY control the government to structure taxes so that they pay far less than what they ought to. It's that Golden Rule as always.

So, how is that wonderful free market working out for you? Lost your house yet?..............................elsullo

 

[dmancornell]

You parrot the usual false arguments. Surprise: lawyers have strong unions (American Bar Association, state legal bars, etc.), and that's why they control the market and get paid a lot, while their clerks and researchers do all of the main work for much less money. It's not a free market by any means; it is structured and controlled by the rich.

Those who benefit the most from the entire infrastructure of society (the rich) should pay their FAIR share of taxes for their greater benefits. Since they profit from everyone's achievements the most, they can damn well pay the most taxes---and STILL have vastly more wealth than everyone else. Instead, they UNFAIRLY control the government to structure taxes so that they pay far less than what they ought to. It's that Golden Rule as always.

So, how is that wonderful free market working out for you? Lost your house yet?..............................elsullo

The state bars are not unions, they are state-sponsored monopolies. You bring up a decent point, the ruling class control vast portions of the market, however, you put faith in the same government structure that is run by the same ruling class. When I say the "market decides wages", it is a market that barely operates due to government intervention, and certainly not a free market by any means. But it is still better than outright government price fixing which is what your ilk would have.

The real solution is to simply do away with government, but how else would you be able to steal other peoples' wealth?

You can capitalize "FAIR" all you want, it's little more than a euphemism for immoral theft at government gunpoint.

Blaming the free market for the housing crash is the height of ignorance. There is no free housing market in the US, it's rigged by the federal reserve, the CRA, fannie/fannie, etc. more of your precious "fairness" guaranteeing government entities.