If not now when, if not us than who?

[Trlsmn]

Wow, good thing you included that link. You know, the one that doesn't support your assertions?!?
From the article linked:
Whew! Conjecture, loose neutral terms and outright speculation.
You've got us there AGCR!!
Looking around on the .net however, we find Wiki has an actual chart of various heights by nationality here:
Human height - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh and look! Right there under U.S. it separates out hispanic Americans, White, black etc.
Now given that the percentage of Hispanics (and other races/nationalities) in the US has increased five-fold or more since WWII, it is highly probable that it is our racial diversity that is dragging us down. It lists Hispanics as 3.5" shorter than the average white American,... Is that the fault of our healthcare system too?
Not to mention the FACT that it points out the falsehoods in your alternet article, as the disparity between American height and European's shrinks.

In the 25 years following WWII, American born (baby boomer) children were the best fed generation in the history of the world.
And last I checked, we were still alive, and the among the largest segment's of America's population.
Your "alternet" article is flawed at best, and looking around at the rest of that website, I think it's easy to see why.

There is no doubt the average American's diet could use some work, so until that issue is laid to rest, you should rest your argument for socialist healthcare being the be-all end-all. Especially when at the moment, it is economic anathema.

Most read articles at AlterNet... As they say....now there's your problem...

1.
Matt Taibbi on Deluded Tea Partiers, Ayn Rand and How the U.S. Is Like the Soviet Union
Matt Taibbi, Maria Armoudian, AlterNet

2.
Why Religious Believers Are So Desperate for the Atheist Seal of Approval
Greta Christina, AlterNet

3.
5 Ways to Deal With Your Conservative Relatives This Thanksgiving



Sarah Seltzer, Lauren Kelley, AlterNet

4.
Why I'm Happy I Became a Prostitute
Charlotte Shane, The Good Men Project

5.
"We Are at War": How Militias, Racists and Anti-Semites Found a Home in the Tea Party
David Neiwert, AlterNet/The Investigative Fund at The Nation Institute

6.
A Different Legal System for the Rich: Imagine Getting Off Easy for Hit-and-Run Because You Run a Hedge Fund
Joshua Holland, AlterNet

7.
6 of Glenn Beck's Most Paranoid, Dangerous Attacks on Progressives
Jan Frel, AlterNet

8.
10 Things You Can Do to Starve the Wall St. Beast and Grab Yourself a Piece of the Pie
Pam Martens, CounterPunch

9.
8 Things Progressives Can Be Thankful For
Tara Lohan, AlterNet

10.
Why Do Americans Keep Getting Suckered By Right-Wing Lies?
Danny Goldberg, The Nation

 

[AGCR]

Sounds like you ought to move over there then...

Oh, the options are open. Germany would repatriate me and a Canadian friend offered to sponsor me if I decided to emigrate North...however, I'm actually something of a patriot and want to make things better here. I prefer a fight. Moving would be a cop out.

 

[drew]

3.
5 Ways to Deal With Your Conservative Relatives This Thanksgiving



Sarah Seltzer, Lauren Kelley, AlterNet

I'm guessing complimenting Uncle Joe on the gun he's open carrying didn't make their list.

 

[AGCR]

Wow, good thing you included that link. You know, the one that doesn't support your assertions?!?
From the article linked:
Whew! Conjecture, loose neutral terms and outright speculation.
You've got us there AGCR!!
Looking around on the .net however, we find Wiki has an actual chart of various heights by nationality here:
Human height - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh and look! Right there under U.S. it separates out hispanic Americans, White, black etc.
Now given that the percentage of Hispanics (and other races/nationalities) in the US has increased five-fold or more since WWII, it is highly probable that it is our racial diversity that is dragging us down. It lists Hispanics as 3.5" shorter than the average white American,... Is that the fault of our healthcare system too?
Not to mention the FACT that it points out the falsehoods in your alternet article, as the disparity between American height and European's shrinks.

In the 25 years following WWII, American born (baby boomer) children were the best fed generation in the history of the world.
And last I checked, we were still alive, and the among the largest segment's of America's population.
Your "alternet" article is flawed at best, and looking around at the rest of that website, I think it's easy to see why.

There is no doubt the average American's diet could use some work, so until that issue is laid to rest, you should rest your argument for socialist healthcare being the be-all end-all. Especially when at the moment, it is economic anathema.

Let's see, "public-sector healthcare puts a greater emphasis on prevention, while our for-profit insurance-based system creates incentives to treat illness rather than prevent it." That and about forty other possible quotations don't sound like weak conjecture. And since you apparently didn't notice the article specifically refers to European-Americans as did my original comments, I'm not sure where you're going bringing up emigrants as those groups were excluded.

 

[Jamie6.5]

The quote I used above is directly from the article. They claim it IS conjecture. That our healthcare system MIGHT be a contributing factor.

Get a source other than that loony-tune outfit that makes unsupported claims based on less than honest investigation and then conjectures in favor of their obvious agenda.

You can't seriously call that website a news source. You can obviously read, so why would you think it is anything other than a propaganda outlet?
Or are you enrolled in the agenda driven left's efforts to raise h#77 on gunboards, spouting socialist rhetoric,...
Like the folks at alternet?

 

[AGCR]

Most read articles at AlterNet... As they say....now there's your problem...

1.
Matt Taibbi on Deluded Tea Partiers, Ayn Rand and How the U.S. Is Like the Soviet Union
Matt Taibbi, Maria Armoudian, AlterNet

etc.....

Oh, I know. I didn't cite a completely unbiased source on that, it was just the first one I noticed looking around. See, I'm actually not much of an internet person. I make observations based on real life experiences, not whatever comes off a screen. The benefits of a socialized economy I talk about come from living in one, not some statistics the internet tells me. It just seems pretty straightforward. Socialized healthcare makes people healthier and the effects are amplified over time. For profit healthcare makes people more sickly and is less cost efficient, leading to a weaker population. I remember a German friend going to the doctor for a fever and complaining about a 20 min. wait. ****, last week my 93 yr old grandpa broke a rib and had to wait 45 minutes in an ER to be seen. That's the kind of social weakness I want to stamp out.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Oh, the options are open. Germany would repatriate me and a Canadian friend offered to sponsor me if I decided to emigrate North...however, I'm actually something of a patriot and want to make things better here. I prefer a fight. Moving would be a cop out.

Actually you sound like you are in support of those that would destroy the U.S. from the inside... If you can.
Why move when you can be a part of bringing down the greatest country in the world eh?

It's the position you take here on a consistent basis.
Socialist=good.
Capitalist=bad.

 

[coctailer]

Oh, the options are open. Germany would repatriate me and a Canadian friend offered to sponsor me if I decided to emigrate North...however, I'm actually something of a patriot and want to make things better here. I prefer a fight. Moving would be a cop out.

I have an apartment in Bavaria, and as much as I am tempted to move, I know I would be worse off than if I stayed here.(financially)

 

[AGCR]

Actually you sound like you are in support of those that would destroy the U.S. from the inside... If you can.
Why move when you can be a part of bringing down the greatest country in the world eh?

It's the position you take here on a consistent basis.
Socialist=good.
Capitalist=bad.

It's unclear why you'd assume that's my motivation. You may disagree with how I want to do it, but I've constantly stated I want to live in a healthy and strong America. Just because someone thinks casino capitalism is a fine system, I'm not going to say they must really hate the US.

 

[Karma]

The benefits of a socialized economy I talk about come from living in one, not some statistics the internet tells me. It just seems pretty straightforward. Socialized healthcare makes people healthier and the effects are amplified over time. For profit healthcare makes people more sickly and is less cost efficient, leading to a weaker population. I remember a German friend going to the doctor for a fever and complaining about a 20 min. wait. ****, last week my 93 yr old grandpa broke a rib and had to wait 45 minutes in an ER to be seen. That's the kind of social weakness I want to stamp out.

O.k. So why do many people with serious illnesses that have money, come to the U.S. for treatment? I agree that there are problems with our medical system, and also the insurance companies, but there are definite problems with the healthcare in socialist countries too.

 

[bugeye]

And how many people have died as a direct result of Communism/Socialists? Yeah the working mans party, they're a happy go lucky, live and let live bunch of progressives aren't they!

People's Republic of China
Body Count: 73,237,000

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
Body Count: 58,627,000

Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic
Body Count: 3,284,000

Democratic People's Republic of Korea
Body Count: 3,163,000

Cambodia
Body Count: 2,627,000

Etc..etc...

Pretty exact numbers but no sources?
What was included to get these inflated figures?
Unintended starvation, wars, or whatever the counters felt like using?

Deaths by all capitalist activities totalled for the last 3 million years

Body Count 16,345,231,567.2666

Calculated by attributing all deaths to capitalism until 1850 since communism did not exist, and then prorating the deaths after to the system operating in the place of death.

 

[bugeye]

O.k. So why do many people with serious illnesses that have money, come to the U.S. for treatment? I agree that there are problems with our medical system, and also the insurance companies, but there are definite problems with the healthcare in socialist countries too.

Geeze, because our system is very good if you have the dough. Seeing as very few of us have the dough our system stinks. The majority of the developed world provides health care to eveyone for about $4000 a year but here we pay $8500 per person including people without any insurance. To make matters worse this amount has been increasing at the unsustainable rate of about 8% per year. We pay $500 per person in paperwork processing due to the numbers of players and complex insurance billing systems. Our private insurance companies are at least 15% less efficient than the federal government is at this job. And most of our providers have gotten very fat and lazy given a system that has not asked for any increases of productivity. Look we are so retarded that you can't even get an antibiotic at a drug store without seeing a doc because the sacred cows want to get paid even for this. In addition they have managed to stamp out low cost nurse practitioneers whenever possible.

 

[Jamie6.5]

So why then, did your high priest make us all slaves to the InsCos buggy?

Insurance Companies are some of the worst offenders we have, in terms of owning politicians and getting the legislation that benefits them, and screws the little guy. And Obama and his henchmen turn around and pass a law that in no way curbs premium costs, allows price fixing unabated and REQUIRES us all to buy it?

Hogwash. And you guys have been drinking it like Kool-aide for so long you can't recognize it for what it is.

 

[gehrheart]

Geeze, because our system is very good if you have the dough. Seeing as very few of us have the dough our system stinks. The majority of the developed world provides health care to eveyone for about $4000 a year but here we pay $8500 per person including people without any insurance. To make matters worse this amount has been increasing at the unsustainable rate of about 8% per year. We pay $500 per person in paperwork processing due to the numbers of players and complex insurance billing systems. Our private insurance companies are at least 15% less efficient than the federal government is at this job. And most of our providers have gotten very fat and lazy given a system that has not asked for any increases of productivity. Look we are so retarded that you can't even get an antibiotic at a drug store without seeing a doc because the sacred cows want to get paid even for this. In addition they have managed to stamp out low cost nurse practitioneers whenever possible.

Whoa, wait are you telling me the Government is more efficient then the privet sector? The Feds are better than the privet sector at processing paper work?


Wow, that is funny stuff right there, you should look into becoming a stand up.

The feds need to stay out of my life. Go back to protecting the borders and regulating foreign trade. (something else they can't seem to get right anymore.)
Is there really a industry the feds have taken over that is now better off???

 

[johnboy]

Whoa, wait are you telling me the Government is more efficient then the privet sector? The Feds are better than the privet sector at processing paper work?


Wow, that is funny stuff right there, you should look into becoming a stand up.

The feds need to stay out of my life. Go back to protecting the borders and regulating foreign trade. (something else they can't seem to get right anymore.)
Is there really a industry the feds have taken over that is now better off???

gehreart+1

 

[Karma]

Geeze, because our system is very good if you have the dough. Seeing as very few of us have the dough our system stinks. The majority of the developed world provides health care to eveyone for about $4000 a year but here we pay $8500 per person including people without any insurance. To make matters worse this amount has been increasing at the unsustainable rate of about 8% per year. We pay $500 per person in paperwork processing due to the numbers of players and complex insurance billing systems. Our private insurance companies are at least 15% less efficient than the federal government is at this job. And most of our providers have gotten very fat and lazy given a system that has not asked for any increases of productivity. Look we are so retarded that you can't even get an antibiotic at a drug store without seeing a doc because the sacred cows want to get paid even for this. In addition they have managed to stamp out low cost nurse practitioneers whenever possible.

The reason you can't get antibiotics without seeing a dr. is because overuse can render the antibiotics useless. If everyone could take anitibiotics for every illness, the illnesses would adapt and become antibiotic resistant leaving no ability to help people who really need it.

Our medical system is overpriced. Part of that is the drain on the system from illegals. I would like to see that drain stopped.

One of the limits on capitalism that limit it's effectiveness is the stupid law that you can't buy insurance from other states. That allows insurance companies to enjoy far less competition than if it were a true capitalistic system. There are a ton of laws like that put in place that screws up capitalism. This goes for both the medical insurance that you and I need to have, as well as the crazy cost of malpractice insurance etc. that drives up the medical costs!

Again, I agree completely that our medical system costs a fortune, but I think there are ways to fix it without going to a socialist system that doesn't work either. There is a reason Mr. Obama and the rest of the elitests won't be using the public system that they deemed good enough for us.

 

[Partsproduction]

I remember a German friend going to the doctor for a fever and complaining about a 20 min. wait. ****, last week my 93 yr old grandpa broke a rib and had to wait 45 minutes in an ER to be seen.

I think your observations are selectively tied to your biases. According to CBC News, a Canadian news agency, "A typical Canadian seeking surgical or other therapeutic treatment had to wait 18.3 weeks in 2007, an all-time high, according to new research published Monday by independent research organization the Fraser Institute."

Read more: <broken link removed>

 

[ZigZagZeke]

So why then, did your high priest make us all slaves to the InsCos buggy?

Insurance Companies are some of the worst offenders we have, in terms of owning politicians and getting the legislation that benefits them, and screws the little guy. And Obama and his henchmen turn around and pass a law that in no way curbs premium costs, allows price fixing unabated and REQUIRES us all to buy it?

Hogwash. And you guys have been drinking it like Kool-aide for so long you can't recognize it for what it is.

Obama's original plan was a single payer plan. It was the Republicans who insisted on using private insurance companies and passing a law that in no way curbs premium costs, allows price fixing unabated and REQUIRES us all to buy it. All three of these points are Republican additions/modifications. You can't blame them on Obama. Aside from that part, your post is dead on target.

 

[Stomper]

If it were TRULY about providing basic medical coverage to all citizens and NOT about politicos merely gaining leverage over the electorate to increase their power over every aspect of our lives and prolonging their political careers and influence by making everyone dependent on them... then we could have a valid discussion, but its CLEARLY not about the good of the nation... its about power, therefore there is no use in reasoning over the "details" and "facts" because they are all moot.

Its like debating over trading one "lord" for "another".

 

[Stomper]

Obama's original plan was a single payer plan. It was the Republicans who insisted on using private insurance companies and passing a law that in no way curbs premium costs, allows price fixing unabated and REQUIRES us all to buy it. All three of these points are Republican additions/modifications. You can't blame them on Obama. Aside from that part, your post is dead on target.

That's a pant load of crap... the Republicans weren't even INVITED to particpate in the crafting of it, and NOT A SINGLE REPUBLICAN voted for it, it was ALL Dumicrats who voted for, and gave you what you got.... go fish.