If not now when, if not us than who?

[ZigZagZeke]

In my opinion they have realized their potential in life. They have accepted it. They think everybody else should be the same and capped the same. Nobody should have better or want better. They believe the pie is a certain size and everybody should have a certain size of it. They don't believe there could be a larger pie and more pies... or they could have their own pie... They believe they should be taken care of, not that they can take care of themselves. They should be protected... Not that they can or should protect themselves.

Really? I was a union member for 25 years, 15 of them as a shop steward. I've also owned more than one business, have a 4 year degree, and own my own farm. I must not have reached my potential then, because I now make about twice what I did then. Unions are like democracy. The only system that's worse is anything else. In an ideal world, workers would not need unions, but the railroad and coal barons of yesteryear are alive and well in today's world. Unregulated capitalism is what spawned unions, and it's what keeps them alive.

Public employees' unions are a different story. It is a conflict of interest for them to be involved in political activity. Just as it is wrong for a large corporation to sway elections to their own benefit, so is it wrong for SEIU or AFSME to do the same. Public employees' unions should be barred from political activity, just as corporations should also be.

It's typical leftist thinking. Without this type of thinking among the population there cannot be the control and containment needed in a socialist/communist society.

Try this: "It's typical right-wing thinking. Without this type of thinking among the population there cannot be the control and containment needed in a capitalist/corporatist society."

Rush and the boys have all the little people who fancy themselves as business people and entrepreneurs clamoring for a tax cut that means $100 for themselves and $1 Billion each for Monsanto, Exxon, Bechtel, etc., who are laughing all the way to the bank. They've swallowed the Koolaid that what's good for business is good for America. That theory was disproven about 100 years ago, but big business has found that if they put it in terms of "saving Small Business" it still works, just like when the Liberals say it's "for the children."

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I am for everyones freedoms. I would really like to hear what you consider freedoms though.

Yep, you are right. Only conservatives try to drive us apart. That doesn't happen from the left at all. lol.

How about the freedom to see things differently without being called a Liberal or a Socialist? I'm neither of those, but I can't state a thought outside the Republican party line without being called a traitor, socialist, and/or a Liberal. I am a rabid moderate.

 

[vico512]

How about the freedom to see things differently without being called a Liberal or a Socialist? I'm neither of those, but I can't state a thought outside the Republican party line without being called a traitor, socialist, and/or a Liberal. I am a rabid moderate.

Don't forget "Libitard"...a favorite insult, of some that have difficulty with cogent thinking.

 

[Karma]

How about the freedom to see things differently without being called a Liberal or a Socialist? I'm neither of those, but I can't state a thought outside the Republican party line without being called a traitor, socialist, and/or a Liberal. I am a rabid moderate.

Of course there is the freedom to see things different. I see things differently than the republican party many times. I am a Independent. I am definitely on the conservative side, but not on all issues.

Remember though, that people who call you those things are just expressing a different viewpoint also. They may not be polite in doing so, but that is another freedom. The thing is that many people are very sensitive to socialism these days. This country was made into the greatest nation in the world with the principals of capitalism and freedom. Both are rapidly eroding, and so is our greatest nation standing.

 

[The Cheese]

you know, I am all for unions in the respect that they are a protective medium between the workers and (abusive) management. What I am not for is when unions get into the political arena and start pushing an agenda, then start to lose focus on the workers and instead focus on keeping themselves alive whilst expanding their bureaucracy. And I really have to agree with Jamie6.5 that unions in the .gov sector need to go by by. Teachers union, state workers union, etc. are all evil IMO. At the very least they need to be neutered and restrained in that they have no swing in the political arenas as well as have no central governance of their own. They should be localized only. Say like one union per school or so.

as for the rest of the stuff in this thread, I am really getting sick of the whole dividing of the american people. I feel that for the most part if everyone stopped and looked at their core ideals we would find that a majority are fairly moderate. Yes their will be people varying on both sides of the line, but we all agree on quite a bit of the same stuff. Its our .gov and media that is the real problem, not one side or the other. But its said to see that the evil has made deep roots in our government and frankly its really sad to see. I have some hope that things will some how turn around, but I doubt it. The same people that tend to be moderate and in the middle also (as has been shown over and over) are dumb as bricks and just listen to what the TV tells them. Its sad, but I guess its just the way it is. Its the new American't way.

 

[gehrheart]

as for the rest of the stuff in this thread, I am really getting sick of the whole dividing of the american people. I feel that for the most part if everyone stopped and looked at their core ideals we would find that a majority are fairly moderate. Yes their will be people varying on both sides of the line, but we all agree on quite a bit of the same stuff. Its our .gov and media that is the real problem, not one side or the other. But its said to see that the evil has made deep roots in our government and frankly its really sad to see. I have some hope that things will some how turn around, but I doubt it. The same people that tend to be moderate and in the middle also (as has been shown over and over) are dumb as bricks and just listen to what the TV tells them. Its sad, but I guess its just the way it is. Its the new American't way.

+1



kill your television (just don't leave the mess for some one else to clean up)

 

[BigCat]

America has always been divided, from day one. We like to give ourselves the illusion of "United" States of America.

 

[gehrheart]

Yes from the very beginning. Study up on how long it really took to get our constitution signed by every one.

There were some very heated divisions happening then. That is why we are a REPUBLIC.

 

[The Cheese]

+1



kill your television (just don't leave the mess for some one else to clean up)

killed it a long time ago. Only keep it around for movies. Other than that, no signal comes into this house. Life has been sooo much better.

 

[BigCat]

Yes from the very beginning. Study up on how long it rally took to get our constitution signed by every one.

There was some very heated divisions happing then. That is why we are a REPUBLIC.

 

[gehrheart]

Ah yes, that is bad.

Sorry for the horrible writing, I was having help from both my 27moth twins, who thought they had some input as well.,


Now i shall make quick haste use of the edit feature and do some corrections.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Of course there is the freedom to see things different. I see things differently than the republican party many times. I am a Independent. I am definitely on the conservative side, but not on all issues.

Remember though, that people who call you those things are just expressing a different viewpoint also. They may not be polite in doing so, but that is another freedom. The thing is that many people are very sensitive to socialism these days. This country was made into the greatest nation in the world with the principals of capitalism and freedom. Both are rapidly eroding, and so is our greatest nation standing.

It's not just expressing a different point of view. To say that I'm a Liberal is a lie. It misrepresents my positions on many things, like abortion.

 

[Karma]

It's not just expressing a different point of view. To say that I'm a Liberal is a lie. It misrepresents my positions on many things, like abortion.

That's fair. I have had a lot of people from the left make the assumption that I am a GWB loving Republican. I am neither. It happens from both sides, and I land somewhere in the middle. I am very conservative on many issues, but I part ways with the Republican platform on quite a few others.

 

[Partsproduction]

This discussion is depressing. It is depressing to me that Americans, many of who lived through the times when the lessons of history played out on the world stage, still don't see that communism is evil, even though a minimum of 100 million people have been murdered because of it.

I don't care too much though, I'm just a pilgrim passing through. At least I don't get tempted to think the average human around me sees things the way they are, that scripture is clearly correct when it says all men are basically evil at the core.

I do envy people who live in red states that have fewer people devoted to evils like socialism than Oregon has, especially when I read this forum and realize how many libs there really are around me.

 

[bugeye]

While we argue over misunderstood terms with concepts fed us by an agenda driven media, this country is in grave danger. While our officals yap the pablum that 'no one can compete with the American Worker' we export our production systems and jobs everyday to countries where people can live well for a month on what it costs us to survive for a day. They graduate 500 times our engineers every year, and do so at low costs. The free traders have created the most unfair playing field ever, one that puts the US in the worst possible position. And to the folks that aren't involved in the production of tangible goods, you are next on the menu. If you think for a second that production systems that can produce something as complex as a PC mother board for $30 retail can't manage to reproduce the sort of boilerplated paperwork BS that is your stock in trade for a few pennies per ton you are out of your agrandized mind.

But lets not deal with the obvious, not when we can stand on either side of the sinking deck throwing folding chairs at each other feeling righeous.

I guess we deserve what we are going to get, we are far too dumb to be on top for long.

 

[bugeye]

This discussion is depressing. It is depressing to me that Americans, many of who lived through the times when the lessons of history played out on the world stage, still don't see that communism is evil, even though a minimum of 100 million people have been murdered because of it.

I don't care too much though, I'm just a pilgrim passing through. At least I don't get tempted to think the average human around me sees things the way they are, that scripture is clearly correct when it says all men are basically evil at the core.

I do envy people who live in red states that have fewer people devoted to evils like socialism than Oregon has, especially when I read this forum and realize how many libs there really are around me.

Gee, how many people have been killed by capitalism?

 

[gehrheart]

There seems to be a misunderstanding of the difference between Socialism and communism.

Yes they tend to go hand in hand, but not the same.

I for one, am a die hard capitalist.




Who is John Galt?

 

[ZigZagZeke]

While we argue over misunderstood terms with concepts fed us by an agenda driven media, this country is in grave danger. While our officals yap the pablum that 'no one can compete with the American Worker' we export our production systems and jobs everyday to countries where people can live well for a month on what it costs us to survive for a day. They graduate 500 times our engineers every year, and do so at low costs. The free traders have created the most unfair playing field ever, one that puts the US in the worst possible position. And to the folks that aren't involved in the production of tangible goods, you are next on the menu. If you think for a second that production systems that can produce something as complex as a PC mother board for $30 retail can't manage to reproduce the sort of boilerplated paperwork BS that is your stock in trade for a few pennies per ton you are out of your agrandized mind.

But lets not deal with the obvious, not when we can stand on either side of the sinking deck throwing folding chairs at each other feeling righeous.

I guess we deserve what we are going to get, we are far too dumb to be on top for long.

And if jobs can't be exported to a place where labor is $5 a day then the large corporations and small businesses will hire illegally imported labor to fill those jobs at half the legal rate here. We need a workable guest worker program to kill the market for illegal labor, and level the playing field for American workers.

 

[Karma]

While we argue over misunderstood terms with concepts fed us by an agenda driven media, this country is in grave danger. While our officals yap the pablum that 'no one can compete with the American Worker' we export our production systems and jobs everyday to countries where people can live well for a month on what it costs us to survive for a day. They graduate 500 times our engineers every year, and do so at low costs. The free traders have created the most unfair playing field ever, one that puts the US in the worst possible position. And to the folks that aren't involved in the production of tangible goods, you are next on the menu. If you think for a second that production systems that can produce something as complex as a PC mother board for $30 retail can't manage to reproduce the sort of boilerplated paperwork BS that is your stock in trade for a few pennies per ton you are out of your agrandized mind.

But lets not deal with the obvious, not when we can stand on either side of the sinking deck throwing folding chairs at each other feeling righeous.

I guess we deserve what we are going to get, we are far too dumb to be on top for long.

We are not living in a capitalist society, and haven't been for a long time. There have been laws put in place to stop competition, which is what regulates price in a capitalist system. What we have now, is some junk system that barely resembles what was put in place. Then, when the system is gutted, the progressives blame capitalism for all our problems!

Capitalism and freedom are the reasons that we became the great nation we did. We need to return to those principals.

 

[Partsproduction]

Gee, how many people have been killed by capitalism?

That shows your misunderstandings of the two "systems". Communism has to murder people eventually when people wake up and see how oppressive it is.

Capitalism may kill a few people, but it doesn't mean to, killing is counterproductive.

Capitalism is a word I don't really like because it has a sinister connotation of greedy traders who, like communists, don't actually produce anything.

I don't really think there is a name for what I see producing all the real wealth in the world, entrepreneurialism comes close, free market is very close but has never existed for long.

What does the murder of anyone do to increase production? Fear is the calling card of communists, not producers. Communism is another name for thieves, thievery and intimidation have always been related.

To answer you, not many. Many billions have been made wealthier, happier and more comfortable by entrepenurialism.