I hate m16's / m4's

[TonsOfOregonBrass]

They are accurate, but finicky and prone to failures. I have spent more time fixing crap on them then shooting them. Semi Auto they work great. Full auto they are just crap.

Yesterday i had the bolt on one of mine break. granted i am not nice to my guns. i beat them. I like to see how they hold up. compared to other "battle rifles" the M16 / M4 is crap IMHO.

Feel free to disagree and discuss.

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[MountainBear]

Buy better quality? Not sure what you've been buying or doing to your guns, but they, like any other piece of equipment perform better when you use quality stuff and take care of it.

I certainly do not baby my guns. I shoot the heck out of them and am not always religious about cleaning. But I use quality ammunition and good mags. I have probably shot 10,000 to 15,000 rounds out of my various AR's over the years, both factory and home-built guns, both high-end guns and low end guns. I must have been lucky, because I've had maybe five stoppages during that time and all could be attributed to bad magazines.

I guess the AR is not the end-all, be-all in the gun world, but it's no worse than the crappy ergonomics of the AK or the carrier tilt wear in piston AR's, or the weight of the FAL's and other .308 guns. Bottom line is, it's a tool. Take care of it and it will reciprocate (same goes with all guns).

And I guess if that's not good enough for people, then my suggestion is to go buy something else and take it out and shoot the piss out of it rather than complaining your AR doesn't work (I am not referring to the OP)...

 

[TonsOfOregonBrass]

Quality is key. I have several other ar's that run fine. no issues eat any kind of ammo and have never failed. However almost every other dealer i talk to with m16's tend to have problems with them. no matter what they are using. They just tend to not work that great in the full auto configuration. This bolt failed after 500 rounds. so i am calling the manufacturer as there is an obvious flaw in it. but i have seen plenty of others that fail for no apparent reason.

Even though i beat the crap out of my guns, i take care of them. they are cleaned every time, and when i see signs of failure or stress i replace the parts. I just find i have to replace the parts for stress or failure more often in m16's then i do for just about any other auto i have.

 

[oasis618]

Well if you want to unload them on someone, I'll give you bottom dollar! :cigar:

 

[oasis618]

Wait...since we're talking about guns here...maybe "unload them on someone" wasn't quite the right choice of words. How about SELL them.

 

[TonsOfOregonBrass]

Ow i would not get rid of them, Just not happy with them right now. and yeah unload is probably the wrong choice of words....

besides you need to fix Washington's NFA laws first before i could unload them there.

 

[parallax]

I'll give ya bottom dollar plus an extra 2 dollars, for your boltless M-16..Yippee

 

[jordanvraptor]

Serious question. Who made that bolt and how many rounds before failure?

 

[NoAim]

Serious question. Who made that bolt and how many rounds before failure?

I posted this in another forum he was complaining about it.

Very likley the bolt is a Del-Ton. Del-Ton contracted out for some bolts during the big gun buy. Unfortunately some of the ones they got in were improperly heat treated and are prone to failure around the bolt lugs. Del-Ton became aware of the issue and is offering a free replacement.

So it's not ARs failing, it's the poor workmanship from a sub contractor.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=100&t=191341

 

[riverrat373]

I LOVE my MINI 14!!!

 

[Ranger90]

another post about buying cheap parts and complaining about poor performance...

 

[TonsOfOregonBrass]

I posted this in another forum he was complaining about it.

Very likley the bolt is a Del-Ton. Del-Ton contracted out for some bolts during the big gun buy. Unfortunately some of the ones they got in were improperly heat treated and are prone to failure around the bolt lugs. Del-Ton became aware of the issue and is offering a free replacement.

So it's not ARs failing, it's the poor workmanship from a sub contractor.

Bolt Issue - AR15.COM

Pretty sure this is the problem also.

another post about buying cheap parts and complaining about poor performance...

However ar15's and m16's are apples and oranges........ even with "high quality" parts. m16's tend to break far more then other rifles when fired full auto. I have had RRA, LMT, and Colt parts all fail when used full auto. These parts were built for full auto. yet they still failed. I can take a "cheap" FAL, or AK and slap an auto sear / trigger group in it and have it run for thousands of rounds with out problems. I have never had an AK break like this, I have had a couple HK's jam, but never break, and FAL's just run. This is all personal experience. and just my opinion.

 

[WAYNO]

...finicky and prone to failures.

Folks are pretty passionate about their AR's. They love them, and will defend them forever, or they hate them.

I was trained to repair every weapon the Army owned, from 4.2" and less. So, I've repaired a whole bunch of guns, of all types. I have repaired, by far, more broken M-16's than all of the other weapons combined.

So, I'm somewhat opinionated about them, and I completely swore off them, many years ago. But, times have changed. I'm surrounded by folks that have M-4's, and they love them. Figured, okay, maybe I'll give them another try. Bought a brand-new Bushmaster in July. It's been back at Bushmaster since mid-August, as there is nothing I can do to make this gun run. Being and expert in operation and maintenance of these guns, you'd think I could fix it myself. I cannot find a single thing wrong. It just will not do anything but double-feed.

So, after many rounds, and many magazines, and after many tear-downs and cleanings, and after much head-scratching, it's time for Bushmaster to figure it out. Someday, I might even hear from them that they've got it fixed.:winkkiss:

Anyway...For the AR lovers, I wish you continued success with your rifles. Even in the Army, while many of us could not make our M-16's run, there were other Troops, right next to us, and their AR's would operate without failure, 100% of the time, in the same conditions.

WAYNO.

 

[MountainBear]

And I've seen FAL's that wouldn't run no matter what. Same with AK's. Same with AR's. Pretty sure my only complaint is that people seem to bag on the problems with the AR more than the problems with the other guns. The ergonomics and accuracy on AK's are deplorable. And it you get dust and crap in the trigger group (which is what happens when you do the mud and dirt torture test with the safety off), the unit binds up horribly. The FAL is great, but is heavy as **** and does not have near the accuracy potential of the AR. The M1A's are great, but are impossible to scope without cheek weld issues and without buying a scope mount as expensive as some scopes. The new wonder guns (the SCAR, the ACR, etc) are nice, but are overpriced. The piston AR's have problems due to the fact that they are trying to make a direct gas gun do something it wasn't designed to do. The AR's are accurate as ****. But if you leave the dust cover open, it can and will jam. It is mag picky. They are adult lego set, which is good and bad. Nice to be able to change things, bad in that it makes people who have no business building guns try to do things they shouldn't.

When someone finds a gun that is as accurate as the AR and as versatile, as reliable as the internet version of the AK, as hard hitting as the FAL, then maybe we can stop having these endless discussions about what the best gun is. Better yet, they could make it affordable too. But then **** might also freeze over...

ADDED: Why in the **** is **** an edited out word? Are we that worried about what we read? What the ****!!

 

[NoAim]

Pretty sure this is the problem also.



However ar15's and m16's are apples and oranges........ even with "high quality" parts. m16's tend to break far more then other rifles when fired full auto. I have had RRA, LMT, and Colt parts all fail when used full auto. These parts were built for full auto. yet they still failed. I can take a "cheap" FAL, or AK and slap an auto sear / trigger group in it and have it run for thousands of rounds with out problems. I have never had an AK break like this, I have had a couple HK's jam, but never break, and FAL's just run. This is all personal experience. and just my opinion.

Or there's my experience. I had a cheap AK. Wouldn't feed more than 10 rounds before jamming. Then I had an expensive AK. POI would shift 2 feet at 50 yards. Then I had a Kobra red dot on the AK. Mount snapped in half. Had a Saiga-12 that if left loaded, would deform the top round and jam before a second shell could be fired. Oh and the sights were frozen and couldn't be adjusted.

Then I had H&K rifles. They worked. Mangled brass. Fixed buttstock would smack you in the cheek. Collapsing stock was a nice piece of rebar with no cheekweld.

Unfortunately no experience with the FAL. Have seen them at the range where a builder was having a frustrating experience with the receivers moving around screwing up the sight picture (rear irons on receiver, front irons on the barrel), and vertical shot stringing.

My ARs....I've had very few problems. I had trouble with PMAGs (double feeds, etc.), but the Lancers and the USGI ones fixed that. I bent the **** out of my changing handle at a match and caused a jam. Went to forged charging handles after that. I had a rear sight fall off at a match, so I started using Blue Loctite to prevent the screws backing out. I had one receiver/free float combo that I couldn't get the nut tightened enough to the next opening for the gas tube. Turns out the upper was out of spec (slightly long where the barrel nut threads are). Functionally and shooting, I've had great success with the ARs. No real "jams" or part breakages to speak of. But then I shoot mine semi, not full.

 

[TonsOfOregonBrass]

why are you guys making this about you?


This is about me!......


JK all guns have their problems. I am just very unhappy with my ar's right now. might be time to build another one.


I just have not had as many problems with other platforms.

 

[NoAim]

why are you guys making this about you?


This is about me!......


JK all guns have their problems. I am just very unhappy with my ar's right now. might be time to build another one.


I just have not had as many problems with other platforms.

Call up Del-Ton and they should make it right for the broken bolt.

I avoid DPMS generally as well (too many out of spec parts). I've been happy with CMMG, LMT, MagPul (except for their PMAGs), LaRue, and Daniel Defense for parts/pieces, etc.

 

[TonsOfOregonBrass]

i am already registered as a dealer with them so i am planning on calling first thing tomorrow to get a replacement.

at least they know they had a problem and are doing everything to make it right for anyone who is having problems.


still doesnt change MY AR's suck.

 

[NoAim]

i am already registered as a dealer with them so i am planning on calling first thing tomorrow to get a replacement.

at least they know they had a problem and are doing everything to make it right for anyone who is having problems.


still doesnt change MY AR's suck.

You're right they do suck. I'll take it off your hands if you pay me a $30 disposal fee.

 

[TonsOfOregonBrass]

You're right they do suck. I'll take it off your hands if you pay me a $30 disposal fee.

I dont think the ATF will find that nearly as cool as you and i will. They kind of frown on loosing NFA items.