I don't understand how using tear gas on violent rioters is "police brutality"

[Ura-Ki]

I see... So you agree with the Chinese government. Good to know.

Apples and oranges! One doesn't equate to the other!

 

[sobo]

More laundry all over the field!

 

[SonicBlue03]

I see... So you agree with the Chinese government. Good to know.

Equating a regime suppressing all forms of protest vs. a law enforcement group trying to disburse open rioters and actual lawless behavior....

Apple, meet orange.

Bystanders downtown are given ample warning to leave without hassle. China would frog march as many as they can into camps.

I get that you're probably just trolling, but if you're not?

 

[Tom Louis]

Study by Human Rights Watch, 2009:

• In every year from 1980 to 2007, blacks were arrested nationwide on drug charges at rates relative to population that were 2.8 to 5.5 times higher than white arrest rates.
• The higher rates of black drug arrests do not reflect higher rates of black drug offending. Indeed, as detailed in our May 2008 report, Targeting Blacks: Drug Law Enforcement and Race in the United States, blacks and whites engage in drug offenses-possession and sales-at roughly comparable rates. But because black drug offenders are the principal targets in the "war on drugs," the burden of drug arrests and incarceration falls disproportionately on black men and women, their families and neighborhoods.

The University of Chicago Law School did an extremely detailed and exhaustive study in 2013 that put succinctly says that blacks were incarcerated for convicted felony offenses 51% of the time while whites convicted of similar felonies were incarcerated 38% of the time. The same study also used an empirical approach to determine that race, not confounded with any other factor, was a key determinant in judges' decisions to incarcerate.

1. While black = 13-14% of population, as an ethnic group they commit much more crime than their percent of population, studies cite as much as 52%, and therefore have much more exposure to LE interactions.

I think it is the other way around. Black people, more often than white people, live in dense urban areas. Dense urban areas are more heavily policed than suburban or rural areas. When people live in close proximity to one another, police can monitor more people more often. In more heavily policed areas, people committing crimes are caught more frequently.

2. Studies of LE interactions with blacks indicate that whether armed or unarmed, blacks tend to run, resist, fight, etc with LE at much higher rates. They have also been shown to carry illegal weapons at a higher rate

I'm usually pretty good at finding studies on the net but I cannot find any that confirm this statement. Can you supply the source of this information? Tom

 

[Ura-Ki]

Two factors to consider:
1. While black = 13-14% of population, as an ethnic group they commit much more crime than their percent of population, studies cite as much as 52%, and therefore have much more exposure to LE interactions.
2. Studies of LE interactions with blacks indicate that whether armed or unarmed, blacks tend to run, resist, fight, etc with LE at much higher rates. They have also been shown to carry illegal weapons at a higher rate. The possibility of death then becomes commensurate with the rate of problematic encounters. Additionally, blacks can be larger, more physically imposing, more athletic, stronger, etc, leading to a higher rate of resisters that have to have deadly force applied for the protection of the officer(s), bystanders, and the community.

I have heard these "Facts" a number of times from respected sources, enough that it would seem most folks assume they are face, however, I have not seen an official report stating these as actual facts, So, while I'm inclined to believe them, I would prefer to see an actual report stating said facts!

 

[EPS]

What's funny is things like OC, rubber balls, gas, etc. were chosen because they were better than clubs and fire hoses.

And the Seattle police chief just said today that all they have now is a riot stick .
AKA Billy club and there side arm.
So what do you think is going to happen.

 

[ma96782]

Some people just have no clue at all.

Or maybe......it's all part of a more sinister plan?

Aloha, Mark

 

[sobo]

My money's on your second option...

 

[HaveGun]

Study by Human Rights Watch, 2009:

• In every year from 1980 to 2007, blacks were arrested nationwide on drug charges at rates relative to population that were 2.8 to 5.5 times higher than white arrest rates.
• The higher rates of black drug arrests do not reflect higher rates of black drug offending. Indeed, as detailed in our May 2008 report, Targeting Blacks: Drug Law Enforcement and Race in the United States, blacks and whites engage in drug offenses-possession and sales-at roughly comparable rates. But because black drug offenders are the principal targets in the "war on drugs," the burden of drug arrests and incarceration falls disproportionately on black men and women, their families and neighborhoods.

The University of Chicago Law School did an extremely detailed and exhaustive study in 2013 that put succinctly says that blacks were incarcerated for convicted felony offenses 51% of the time while whites convicted of similar felonies were incarcerated 38% of the time. The same study also used an empirical approach to determine that race, not confounded with any other factor, was a key determinant in judges' decisions to incarcerate

Did the study take in account the number of previous felonies and arrests of the black subjects?

 

[HaveGun]

I think it is the other way around. Black people, more often than white people, live in dense urban areas. Dense urban areas are more heavily policed than suburban or rural areas. When people live in close proximity to one another, police can monitor more people more often. In more heavily policed areas, people committing crimes are caught more frequently.

Why do I constantly hear that there are areas of our urban cities in which police avoid or are unable to safely enter? Why do I see law-abiding urban folks complaining about the lack of police presence in their neighborhoods?

Have you ever lived in a rural area? The cops in small towns and rural areas know who the troublemakers are and give them extra scrutiny.

Sorry, but I refuse to believe the data supplied by an anti-Semitic and agenda-driven organization funded by George Soros such as the Human Rights Watch. The problem isn't the cops, its the behavior of those that can't seem to obey the law and play well with others.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Why do I constantly hear that there are areas of our urban cities in which police avoid or are unable to safely enter? Why do I see law-abiding urban folks complaining about the lack of police presence in their neighborhoods?

Have you ever lived in a rural area? The cops in small towns and rural areas know who the troublemakers are and give them extra scrutiny.

Sorry, but I refuse to believe the data supplied by an anti-Semitic and agenda-driven organization funded by George Soros such as the Human Rights Watch. The problem isn't the cops, its the behavior of those that can't seem to obey the law and play well with others.

ZACKLIES!

 

[sobo]

Did the study take in account the number of previous felonies and arrests of the black subjects?

Was wondering that exact same thing... but for both/all races...

 

[L84Cabo]

It is not brutality.

But then again, I think when we're at the point that the RIOTERS are blinding law enforcement with lasers, throwing explosive devises with nails and ball bearings attached, etc., that it's time to take the chains off. Police should be authorized to use water canons, dogs, and firearms at this point...and anything else they can think of.

Order should be restored. PERIOD.

WOLVERINES!

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

Additionally, blacks can be larger, more physically imposing, more athletic, stronger, etc, leading to a higher rate of resisters that have to have deadly force applied for the protection of the officer(s), bystanders, and the community

"[C]an be larger ..."? What does this mean? Are they or aren't they "larger", etc.? What evidence is there that links size to a higher rate of arrest resistance? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'd just like to know what your evidence is.

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

Study by Human Rights Watch, 2009:

• In every year from 1980 to 2007, blacks were arrested nationwide on drug charges at rates relative to population that were 2.8 to 5.5 times higher than white arrest rates.
• The higher rates of black drug arrests do not reflect higher rates of black drug offending. Indeed, as detailed in our May 2008 report, Targeting Blacks: Drug Law Enforcement and Race in the United States, blacks and whites engage in drug offenses-possession and sales-at roughly comparable rates. But because black drug offenders are the principal targets in the "war on drugs," the burden of drug arrests and incarceration falls disproportionately on black men and women, their families and neighborhoods.

One of the more interesting things about the BLM movement is how relatively very little attention has been paid to the War on Drugs. You'd think that if people really cared about Black lives and reducing police interactions across the board there would be a strong, clear, concerted push from BLM for ending the WoD.

I'd be all for that. Like Prohibition before it, the WoD has been a destructive and expensive--in terms of lives harmed and lost, tax funds, and civil liberties compromised--failure. Most illicit drugs, along with alcohol and tobacco, are tremendously destructive and it grieves me to see so many Americans addicted to them. Reckless legalization and turning a blind eye to addiction are not solutions but we could hardly do worse with those than with the policies we have now.

I deduce that for the BLM leaders and activists, at least, saving Black lives isn't the main priority and never has been. BLM makes more sense as a campaign, waged on false pretenses, primarily to increase the power, influence, and wealth of a select few who benefit from the movement, including Democratic politicians who dangerously hope to harness it. And if you don't think there are a lot of $$$ to be made on BLM just read "George Soros' Foundation Empowers Black Groups to Tune of $220 Million" , for example.

That said, I think there are a lot of sincere supporters of BLM who really do care about justice, equality, and Black lives. However, the evidence suggests these supporters have been duped by unscrupulous manipulators and opportunists.

The University of Chicago Law School did an extremely detailed and exhaustive study in 2013 that put succinctly says that blacks were incarcerated for convicted felony offenses 51% of the time while whites convicted of similar felonies were incarcerated 38% of the time. The same study also used an empirical approach to determine that race, not confounded with any other factor, was a key determinant in judges' decisions to incarcerate.

I think it is the other way around. Black people, more often than white people, live in dense urban areas. Dense urban areas are more heavily policed than suburban or rural areas. When people live in close proximity to one another, police can monitor more people more often. In more heavily policed areas, people committing crimes are caught more frequently.

I'm usually pretty good at finding studies on the net but I cannot find any that confirm this statement. Can you supply the source of this information? Tom

National homicide statistics in the US have consistently shown that, on an annual basis, Black victims comprise roughly half of all known murder victims in the US. For example, in 2018, 53.3% of all murder victims (where race was known) were Black. Moreover, 54.9% of all murderers (where race was known) were Black. I looked at these same stats in the Obama years and there has been no significant change since Trump came into office.

I haven't read the UChicago study but, to sum up, I think increased policing (and age and poverty rates) is a very relevant and valid factor to consider but any study of racially divergent arrest and sentencing rates that doesn't account for the tremendously disproportionate levels of lethal violence among Black Americans is simply not worth the paper it's printed on.

Looking at violence more broadly, again from 2018, here are some additional findings, "based on victims' perceptions of the offenders":

1. The percentage of violent incidents involving black offenders (22%) was 1.8 times the percentage of black persons (12%) in the population.
2. The percentage of violent incidents involving white (50%) or Hispanic (14%) offenders was about four-fifths (0.8 times) the percentage of whites (62%) or Hispanics (17%) in the population
3. The offender-to-victim ratio shows that the percentage of violent incidents involving black offenders (22%) was twice the percentage of incidents committed against black victims (11%).

In conclusion, there is evidence that Black Americans significantly outperform their non-Black fellow Americans in engaging in violent criminality. Any studies that do not address and take account for this fact when considering differential arrest, sentencing, incarceration, police contact, and police use of force rates are simply not credible.

Finally, here's an excerpt from a 2019 article by Heather Mac Donald. I find her writing style to be often overly hyperbolic and ad hominem but I've never known her to misrepresent or twist data in support of an argument.

Just this month, the Bureau of Justice Statistics released its 2018 survey of criminal victimization. According to the study, there were 593,598 interracial violent victimizations (excluding homicide) between blacks and whites last year, including white-on-black and black-on-white attacks. Blacks committed 537,204 of those interracial felonies, or 90 percent, and whites committed 56,394 of them, or less than 10 percent. That ratio is becoming more skewed, despite the Democratic claim of Trump-inspired white violence. In 2012-13, blacks committed 85 percent of all interracial victimizations between blacks and whites; whites committed 15 percent. From 2015 to 2018, the total number of white victims and the incidence of white victimization have grown as well.

Blacks are also overrepresented among perpetrators of hate crimes—by 50 percent—according to the most recent Justice Department data from 2017; whites are underrepresented by 24 percent. This is particularly true for anti-gay and anti-Semitic hate crimes.

 

[bbbass]

I see... So you agree with the Chinese government. Good to know.

So you approve of rioting, looting, burning, killing... good to know.

You're comparing this to Hong Kong.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Nice try.

 

[bbbass]

"[C]an be larger ..."? What does this mean? Are they or aren't they "larger", etc.? What evidence is there that links size to a higher rate of arrest resistance? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'd just like to know what your evidence is.

A good percentage of black males are larger than the avg non-black. My eyes tell me that. A good percentage are stronger, more athletic... dominance in several sports, NFL and NBA in particular, shows that. Whereas, MLB is more evenly represented in distributed ethnicity as a sport that doesn't benefit from those attributes in the same manner.

I did not link size to a higher rate of resistance. I said that studies indicate that blacks have a higher rate of resistance. And that size, strength, and athleticism make such resistance more of a threat to the officer's safety. Two diff points.

What evidence would you accept? A simple Google search gave me lots of results that you can find on your own. Do those results provide evidence... that's up to you to decide. I'm not here to prove those points, just reporting what I found.

 

[bbbass]

I'm usually pretty good at finding studies on the net but I cannot find any that confirm this statement. Can you supply the source of this information? Tom

I knew somebody would ask me to cite. I'm not here to prove anything, just reporting what I found with a simple Google search. Sorry you can't find anything. If you believe that disproves the point, that's fine with me.

 

[bbbass]

I have heard these "Facts" a number of times from respected sources, enough that it would seem most folks assume they are face, however, I have not seen an official report stating these as actual facts, So, while I'm inclined to believe them, I would prefer to see an actual report stating said facts!

I understand. However, what i reported came from a simple Google search that returned quite a number of results. One of those was FBI.gov.

RedCardinalSeven made some good citations.

 

[wjv]

Wait until the people become fed-up. Then the protesters will see what real violence is.