I don't understand how using tear gas on violent rioters is "police brutality"

[bbbass]

Study by Human Rights Watch, 2009:

I'm not buying anything that comes from Human Rights Watch, nor University of Chicago. However, what does drug convictions have to do with Officer Involved Shootings?

 

[bbbass]

I think it is the other way around. Black people, more often than white people, live in dense urban areas. Dense urban areas are more heavily policed than suburban or rural areas. When people live in close proximity to one another, police can monitor more people more often. In more heavily policed areas, people committing crimes are caught more frequently.

Really? Interesting thought. Not sure the populations of New York would agree. But it would seem that the arrest rates are all going to be reversed with the Defund movement. So what will happen is that the criminals won't get caught. How is that a good thing???

 

[bbbass]

More laundry all over the field!
View attachment 727000

Good one!

I did some research on "logical fallacies" in debates. What I found was impressive that people actually study these interactions and come up with terms to identify such underhanded strategies.

 

[bbbass]

@RedCardinalSeven

You know I love your stuff!!!

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

A good percentage of black males are larger than the avg non-black. My eyes tell me that.

Okay, so your eyes tell you. What do your eyes tell you about whether the sun goes around the earth or the earth goes around the sun?

A good percentage are stronger, more athletic... dominance in several sports, NFL and NBA in particular, shows that. Whereas, MLB is more evenly represented in distributed ethnicity as a sport that doesn't benefit from those attributes in the same manner.

Professional and college sports teams are not a representative sample of anything except pro and college athletes.

I did not link size to a higher rate of resistance. I said that studies indicate that blacks have a higher rate of resistance. And that size, strength, and athleticism make such resistance more of a threat to the officer's safety. Two diff points.

Point taken.

What evidence would you accept? A simple Google search gave me lots of results that you can find on your own. Do those results provide evidence... that's up to you to decide. I'm not here to prove those points, just reporting what I found.

I'd consider a lot of things as evidence with the full knowledge that evidence is not necessarily proof, can be wrong or misleading, and that all evidence should be critically evaluated.

I did do an internet search of my own on the question last night before I replied to you and I didn't find any evidence in support of your subjective observation. I'm not saying there isn't any, I just didn't find any.

What did keep popping up in search results were articles about a 2017 study by Wilson et al. titled "Racial Bias in Judgments of Physical Size and Formidability: From Size to Threat". The article is behind a pay wall but the gist of it as far as I can tell is that "Even if white and black men are the same heights and weights, people tend to perceive black men as taller, more muscular and heavier." The study's lead author told the Washington Post: " 'We found that these estimates were consistently biased,' Wilson said. 'Participants judged the black men to be larger, stronger and more muscular than the white men, even though they were actually the same size.' "

Curiously, as far I can tell, the authors of the study and most of the people who wrote about the study did not seem to have anything to say about whether Black men actually are larger, more muscular, etc. than White men. Though the WP writer did add this at the end of his article:

Across the United States, the average black man and the average white man are roughly the same height and weight. According to what data are available, such as information taken from Centers for Disease Control and Prevention surveys, the average white man older than 20 weighs 199 pounds. So does the average black man. Height averages for black and white men are within a centimeter of each other, with the average white man being slightly taller at 5-foot-10.

In any case, that 2017 study by Wilson et al. suggests that people who rely on their "eyes" to tell them about such things may be mistaken. Not having read the study, I don't believe it or the WP article settles the matter but it's evidence all the same.

 

[HaveGun]

I did a quick search and found data to support the theory that African American males are indeed stronger on average than white males. Took two minutes...

Natural Athletic Ability of African Americans | FitnessGenes®

Why do African Americans have the potential to be such great athletes? Here at FitnessGenes™, it’s the detail of theories that interests us, and we believe this is a phenomenal example of philosophy, hypothesis, and science.

fitnessgenes.com

Which race is physically strongest?

A video of big brained Oprah arm wrestling Jewish Rosanne Barr: According to HBD, blacks are the most masculine, aggressive and athletic race, so I was surprised to discover a large subset of HBDer…

pumpkinperson.com

Anatomical differences in the psoas muscles in young black and white men

The anatomy of the psoas major muscle (PMA) in young black and white men was studied during routine autopsies. The forensic autopsies included 44 fresh male cadavers (21 black, 23 white) with an age span of 14 to 25 y. The range for weight was 66–76 ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Hawaiian]

We need to use this.

Who, What, Why: What is skunk water?

Police departments in the United States are reported to have bought a foul-smelling liquid developed in Israel to repel protesters. What is it and how is it used?

www.bbc.com

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

I did a quick search and found data to support the theory that African American males are indeed stronger on average than white males. Took two minutes...

Those are interesting finds. However, I don't see a whole of "data to support the theory that African American males are indeed stronger on average than white males." Let's take them one at a time.

1. The FitnessGenes blog post has no relevant data about strength and a lot of speculation, including a summary of "theories" attributed to a Dr. Jose Antonio PhD.

2. The Pumpkin Person (PP) blog post cites some contradictory data on strength. The first is a study that purports to support the claim by PP that "The average black American can bench press more than the average white American". That is not what the study claims. The study's title is "Racial Comparisons in Police Officer Bench Press Strength over 12.5 Years" and the authors measured the bench press strength of 309 officers in the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department as recruits and then again 12.5 years later.

They found that the difference in mean bench press strength was not statistically significant in women but it was in men. However, the number of Black men (n=41) in the study compared to White men (n=238) was much smaller and the overlap in the standard deviations of the mean in both groups of men was about twice the size of the difference in the means. Another interesting finding was that over the 12.5 years covered by the study, as measured by Bench Press/Lean Mass, the White officers actually got stronger while the Black officers got weaker until the two groups were virtually identical. In any case, the results of that study are certainly evidence of a possible racial difference in bench press strength but they are not generalizable to the overall US population and the authors make no claims that they are.

The second set of data PP cites about strength is that "As blogger Racerealist told me, nine Americans have won the World's Strongest Man competition, and not a single Black was among them. Indeed not a single Black has won from any country." There are several problems with that data but, again, it is not generalizable to the overall US population. I'm ignoring the stuff in PP's post about bodybuilding because, for one reason, bodybuilders are judged on aesthetics, not strength--they win competitions by posing, not by lifting the heaviest weights.

3. Finally, you included a link to "Anatomical differences in the psoas muscles in young black and white men." There are hundreds of muscles in the human body. The psoas is just one of them and it is mostly buried in the abdomen and pelvis. The 1998 study in question looked at psoas muscles of "44 fresh male cadavers (21 black, 23 white) with an age span of 14 to 25 y." The muscles came from cadavers from Arkansas and Sweden. The psoas of these subjects seems like an odd choice for making a claim about overall racial strength differences in the US population and, in fact, the authors of the study make no such claim. Here is what they say:

The results show that the PMA [psoas major muscle] is markedly larger in black than white individuals. Albeit unconfirmed, the substantial race specific difference in the size of the PMA may have implications for hip flexor strength, spine function and race specific incidence in low back pathology.

In any case, in 22 years this study has apparently been cited only three times by other researchers and never to support the proposition that Black men are, on average, stronger than White men.

In conclusion, it can be quick and easy to find stuff on the internet to support some bias about this or that but unless you carefully scrutinize your findings you're liable to end up making questionable claims. If one doesn't really give a hoot about the truth then quick and easy is probably the way to go.

Finally, I've never claimed to know if Black men are stronger on average than White men. However, I can say that, so far, I haven't seen any compelling or conclusive evidence in support of the claim.

 

[bbbass]

Regarding rates of resisting arrest, I'm looking at what I can find on the internet. Per RedCardinalSeven, the results must be carefully analyzed. Note however, that his in-depth analysis ability seems to be much greater than mine.

One return on my search yielded the table in this link from the FBI: Table 21




Home • Crime in the U.S. • 2016 • Crime in the U.S. 2016 • Tables • Table 21


Criminal Justice Information Services Division Feedback | Contact Us | Data Quality Guidelines | UCR Home

• Home
• Offenses Known to Law Enforcement
• Violent Crime
• Property Crime
• Clearances
• Persons Arrested
• Police Employee Data

Table 21
Arrests
by Race and Ethnicity, 2016
[13,049 agencies; 2016 estimated population 257,112,535]

• Overview
• Data Declaration
• Download Excel (Table 21A)
• Download Excel (Table 21B)
• Download Excel (Table 21C)

Table 21A

��

Race	Ethnicity
	Total arrests	Percent distribution1	Total arrests	Percent distribution1
Offense charged	Total	White	Black or African American	American Indian or Alaska Native	Asian	Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander	Total	White	Black or African American	American Indian or Alaska Native	Asian	Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander	Total2	Hispanic or Latino	Not Hispanic or Latino	Total	Hispanic or Latino	Not Hispanic or Latino
TOTAL	8,421,481	5,858,330	2,263,112	171,185	103,244	25,610	100.0	69.6	26.9	2.0	1.2	0.3	6,647,012	1,221,066	5,425,946	100.0	18.4	81.6
Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter	9,374	4,192	4,935	108	109	30	100.0	44.7	52.6	1.2	1.2	0.3	6,882	1,374	5,508	100.0	20.0	80.0
Rape3	18,606	12,571	5,412	233	309	81	100.0	67.6	29.1	1.3	1.7	0.4	13,896	3,758	10,138	100.0	27.0	73.0
Robbery	76,267	33,095	41,562	663	659	288	100.0	43.4	54.5	0.9	0.9	0.4	60,116	12,657	47,459	100.0	21.1	78.9
Aggravated assault	304,626	191,205	101,432	6,374	4,678	937	100.0	62.8	33.3	2.1	1.5	0.3	250,762	61,073	189,689	100.0	24.4	75.6
Burglary	164,641	112,651	47,991	1,613	1,925	461	100.0	68.4	29.1	1.0	1.2	0.3	130,179	27,113	103,066	100.0	20.8	79.2
Larceny-theft	833,558	575,105	231,199	14,933	10,277	2,044	100.0	69.0	27.7	1.8	1.2	0.2	624,800	91,210	533,590	100.0	14.6	85.4
Motor vehicle theft	68,170	44,970	20,955	1,018	895	332	100.0	66.0	30.7	1.5	1.3	0.5	52,786	14,160	38,626	100.0	26.8	73.2
Arson	7,767	5,593	1,813	218	120	23	100.0	72.0	23.3	2.8	1.5	0.3	5,495	910	4,585	100.0	16.6	83.4
Violent crime4	408,873	241,063	153,341	7,378	5,755	1,336	100.0	59.0	37.5	1.8	1.4	0.3	331,656	78,862	252,794	100.0	23.8	76.2
Property crime4	1,074,136	738,319	301,958	17,782	13,217	2,860	100.0	68.7	28.1	1.7	1.2	0.3	813,260	133,393	679,867	100.0	16.4	83.6
Other assaults	853,493	556,871	267,764	15,505	10,511	2,842	100.0	65.2	31.4	1.8	1.2	0.3	665,711	121,329	544,382	100.0	18.2	81.8
Forgery and counterfeiting	44,831	29,375	14,308	290	752	106	100.0	65.5	31.9	0.6	1.7	0.2	35,180	5,580	29,600	100.0	15.9	84.1
Fraud	101,301	67,860	30,888	1,248	1,164	141	100.0	67.0	30.5	1.2	1.1	0.1	79,089	9,084	70,005	100.0	11.5	88.5
Embezzlement	12,592	7,732	4,512	104	209	35	100.0	61.4	35.8	0.8	1.7	0.3	10,178	1,225	8,953	100.0	12.0	88.0
Stolen property; buying, receiving, possessing	74,492	47,818	24,851	876	812	135	100.0	64.2	33.4	1.2	1.1	0.2	56,243	11,067	45,176	100.0	19.7	80.3
Vandalism	154,958	105,933	43,499	3,370	1,768	388	100.0	68.4	28.1	2.2	1.1	0.3	121,519	22,425	99,094	100.0	18.5	81.5
Weapons; carrying, possessing, etc.	124,150	69,414	51,898	1,135	1,401	302	100.0	55.9	41.8	0.9	1.1	0.2	97,279	22,753	74,526	100.0	23.4	76.6
Prostitution and commercialized vice	30,322	16,819	11,495	121	1,821	66	100.0	55.5	37.9	0.4	6.0	0.2	25,718	5,123	20,595	100.0	19.9	80.1
Sex offenses (except rape and prostitution)	40,292	28,837	9,949	633	749	124	100.0	71.6	24.7	1.6	1.9	0.3	32,402	8,134	24,268	100.0	25.1	74.9
Drug abuse violations	1,242,630	881,885	332,131	12,746	13,593	2,275	100.0	71.0	26.7	1.0	1.1	0.2	991,426	201,110	790,316	100.0	20.3	79.7
Gambling	2,905	1,308	1,405	8	167	17	100.0	45.0	48.4	0.3	5.7	0.6	1,958	502	1,456	100.0	25.6	74.4
Offenses against the family and children	69,546	46,661	20,265	2,065	519	36	100.0	67.1	29.1	3.0	0.7	0.1	55,805	6,345	49,460	100.0	11.4	88.6
Driving under the influence	798,012	655,648	108,881	14,700	15,969	2,814	100.0	82.2	13.6	1.8	2.0	0.4	657,336	148,548	508,788	100.0	22.6	77.4
Liquor laws	183,514	145,328	26,545	8,413	2,792	436	100.0	79.2	14.5	4.6	1.5	0.2	134,376	19,488	114,888	100.0	14.5	85.5
Drunkenness	299,248	228,784	43,948	23,043	3,046	427	100.0	76.5	14.7	7.7	1.0	0.1	266,894	64,347	202,547	100.0	24.1	75.9
Disorderly conduct	291,951	184,903	94,004	10,121	2,320	603	100.0	63.3	32.2	3.5	0.8	0.2	207,010	26,664	180,346	100.0	12.9	87.1
Vagrancy	19,755	13,033	6,063	412	234	13	100.0	66.0	30.7	2.1	1.2	0.1	16,265	2,624	13,641	100.0	16.1	83.9
All other offenses (except traffic)	2,567,092	1,775,423	704,293	50,666	26,136	10,574	100.0	69.2	27.4	2.0	1.0	0.4	2,024,802	327,510	1,697,292	100.0	16.2	83.8
Suspicion	440	154	135	143	5	3	100.0	35.0	30.7	32.5	1.1	0.7	239	17	222	100.0	7.1	92.9
Curfew and loitering law violations	26,948	15,162	10,979	426	304	77	100.0	56.3	40.7	1.6	1.1	0.3	22,666	4,936	17,730	100.0	21.8	78.2

• 1 Because of rounding, the percentages may not add to 100.0.
• 2 The ethnicity totals are representative of those agencies that provided ethnicity breakdowns. Not all agencies provide ethnicity data; therefore, the race and ethnicity totals will not equal.
• 3 The rape figures in this table are aggregate totals of the data submitted based on both the legacy and revised Uniform Crime Reporting definitions.
• 4 Violent crimes are offenses of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. Property crimes are offenses of burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson.

Data Declaration
Provides the methodology used in constructing this table and other pertinent information about this table.
Overview
Download Printable Document
Arrests, by Race and Ethnicity, 2016

• In 2016, 69.6 percent of all individuals arrested were White, 26.9 percent were Black or African American, and 3.6 percent were of other races.
• Of arrestees for whom ethnicity was reported, 18.4 percent were Hispanic.
• Of all juveniles (persons under the age of 18) arrested in 2016, 62.1 percent were White, 34.7 percent were Black or African American, and 3.2 percent were of other races.
• Of juvenile arrestees for whom ethnicity was reported, 22.8 percent were Hispanic.
• Of all adults arrested in 2016, 70.2 percent were White, 26.2 percent were Black or African American, and 3.6 percent were of other races.
• Of adult arrestees for whom ethnicity was reported, 18.0 were Hispanic.
• White individuals were arrested more often for violent crimes than individuals of any other race and accounted for 59.0 percent of those arrests.
• Of adults arrested for murder, 52.0 percent were Black or African American, 45.4 percent were White, and 2.6 percent were of other races.
• Black or African American juveniles comprised 52.0 percent of all juveniles arrested for violent crimes. White juveniles accounted for 58.4 percent of all juveniles arrested for property crimes.
• Of juveniles arrested for drug abuse violations, 74.8 percent were White.
• White juveniles comprised 64.7 percent of juveniles arrested for rape and 60.2 percent of juveniles arrested for larceny-theft.

Publications

• Crime in the United States
• Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted (LEOKA)
• Hate Crime Statistics
• National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS)
• Cargo Theft 2014 (pdf)
• Cargo Theft 2013 (pdf)
• Human Trafficking (pdf)

General Resources

• A Word About UCR Data
• UCR Statistics, Their Proper Use (pdf)
• Data Quality Guidelines
• UCR Program—Summary of Authorities
• UCR Program Quarterly
• State Program Bulletins and Newsletters
• UCR Program Contacts
• State UCR Program Contacts
• UCR Quality Assurance Review
• Related Sites

Data Collections

• National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS)
• Summary Reporting System (SRS)
• Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted (LEOKA)
• Hate Crime Statistics
• Cargo Theft

A few things I note about this data set:

1. Whites seem to be arrested at a rate that comports generally to their % of population, estimated to be between 69% and 72%.. This holds true across the results except for arrests for murder, in which case the report shows white arrests as 44.7% of the total arrests for murder, and blacks as 52.6% of the total arrests for murder. The results are similar in the categories of Robbery, and Violent Crime.
2. Blacks are reported to be arrested at rates higher than their % of population, which is currently estimated at about 13%.
3. Do arrests reflect the actual crime rate?

Most searches for articles on resisting arrest give results similar to the following, which blames the arrests on police bias: African-Americans Arrested for Resisting Arrest at a Larger Rate in San Diego in which activist Bishop Cornelius Bowser states:

"When a black person is being arrested and you see he is not resisting they say 'stop resisting, stop resisting,'" community activist Bishop Cornelius Bowser said. "That's one of the first things they say is 'stop resisting' and you're like 'I am not resisting man.'"


Bowser said there are reasons why more blacks are arrested for resisting or obstructing a police officer.


"We believe a lot of this plays into the officers implicit bias," Bowser said. "It's a culture that is embedded in law enforcement that when they see a black person, they see crime right?"


Bowser said resisting, delaying, and obstructing officers can be abused by police to justify arrests, and it may be a way to lend legitimacy to controversial arrests.

However, I've watched a lot of videos on LivePD and elsewhere, and contrary to what Bowser claims, I can see that the suspect is either visibly resisting and trying to break free or is using muscles to try to pull their arms away from being handcuffed. That is resisting arrest despite their saying they are not resisting.

Is there a diff in perception of what is happening? A diff between the LEO and the suspects perception... of course there is. Is there a diff in perception while watching a video? IDK, if I can't believe my own damn eyes, I guess I give up.

Does bias against police or fear of police contribute to an individual resisting? And if it does, does that make it okay to resist?

We've discussed resisting arrest on this forum. Many members agree with Bowser. I've never been arrested, so I don't have their personal experience with such.

In another study OIS stats for the race of the police officer were across the board spread among all races, indicating that bias does not exist when it comes to officers deciding to shoot. I'd have to see if I can find that study or report again if members want me to post it.

 

[bbbass]

FWIW:

Heather Mac Donald: There is no epidemic of fatal police shootings against unarmed Black Americans (I found another similar article by the same author, but it is behind a WSJ paywall, so I won;t include a link here.)

And then there is this: Risk of being killed by police use of force in the United States by age, race–ethnicity, and sex Look carefully at the wording that shows bias "Police violence", 'Police killings" "risk of being killed", "exposure to the criminal justice system", " Policing plays a key role in maintaining structural inequalities ".

And then there is abuse of statistics, ie looking at one aspect or data set w/o considering the context or other factors: People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2020 | Statista

And a report that manages to avoid the use of inflammatory (biased) language: Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement (Termed "legal intervention deaths".) I won't argue with their numbers, I just wonder about using stats/numbers alone to promote public/police policy.

And on and on with similar search results. Use of numbers alone to explain/address complex interactions seems to be endemic/epidemic.

 

[tkdguy]

The allegation or fact or falsify or distort communication is intent to manipulate public opinion.

 

[bbbass]

May you live in interesting times:

American mayhem: More rioting and lawlessness in cities across US (including a fatality in Austin, where a man with a weapon approached a vehicle and was shot for his effort)

Louisville protests descend into chaos when armed protester accidentally shoots members of his group, injuring 3

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

IDK, if I can't believe my own damn eyes, I guess I give up.

First, bbbass, thanks for having a civilized and respectful discussion with me about tough subjects.

As for believing your eyes, as R. Reagan said, "Trust, but verify." The same goes for ears.

Many years ago, I was sitting in the north woods on a cold, still November morning with a Winchester rifle on my lap. Not long after the sun came up I heard a large flock of birds loudly calling to each other. Eventually, curiosity and cold feet got the better of me. I left my spot to go find the birds.

Eventually, I came upon a small lake in the woods where the sound was coming from. Yet, there were no birds to be found. It turns out that during the night a thin sheet of ice had formed on the lake and when the sun hit it the ice or water expanded and that movement was creating the bird sounds as the ice broke apart. I've never heard anything like it before or since.

Much of the time things are what they seem but when it matters the question to ask is: What is it that my senses can't tell me about what I think I'm seeing or hearing? For example, the video of Derek Chauvin kneeling on George Floyd can't tell you what happened before the video starts. It can't tell you how much pressure Chauvin is exerting on Floyd's neck. It can't tell you what Chauvin was thinking in those critical moments. And it can't tell you much about the "content of the character" of Floyd or Chauvin.

 

[MannyGlocks]

I've just read a few posts on this thread.

I've been hit with both cs and cn as part of Army training and it's merely annoying, what a buncha boo-hooing pansies.

 

[bbbass]

First, bbbass, thanks for having a civilized and respectful discussion with me about tough subjects.

As for believing your eyes, as R. Reagan said, "Trust, but verify." The same goes for ears.

Many years ago, I was sitting in the north woods on a cold, still November morning with a Winchester rifle on my lap. Not long after the sun came up I heard a large flock of birds loudly calling to each other. Eventually, curiosity and cold feet got the better of me. I left my spot to go find the birds.

Eventually, I came upon a small lake in the woods where the sound was coming from. Yet, there were no birds to be found. It turns out that during the night a thin sheet of ice had formed on the lake and when the sun hit it the ice or water expanded and that movement was creating the bird sounds as the ice broke apart. I've never heard anything like it before or since.

Much of the time things are what they seem but when it matters the question to ask: Is what is it that my senses can't tell me about what I think I'm seeing or hearing? For example, the video of Derek Chauvin kneeling on George Floyd can't tell you what happened before the video starts. It can't tell you how much pressure Chauvin is exerting on Floyd's neck. It can't tell you what Chauvin was thinking in those critical moments. And it can't tell you much about the "content of the character" of Floyd or Chauvin.

Thank you Sir!! I typically treat people how they treat me. I admire your abilities to analyze, your willingness to take the time to go in-depth, and your approach with members when posting!

Regarding hearing, never trust your ears! Squirrels make sounds that seem like birds, or even deer or elk chirps. Storytime: my wife and I used to backpack our local mountain and high lake areas, almost every other weekend in the summer. One time we had hiked up to Glacier Lake, an interesting spot where the lake sits in a steep mountain bowl with rocky terrain all around. The first night I was awakened in our little backpack tent by a loud bit of noise... it sounded like a herd of elk crossing the lake. Well dang, that can't be. The lake must be deeper than that! So I got up and went outside. After a bit of puzzlement, I shined a flashlight out over the lake and low and behold, the wind was lapping waves. It descended the slope on one side of the bowl and sped across the lake. Just one of the weird things I experienced in the woods.

Another time, some in our party were tracking an elk they had shot. After we went to fetch the truck, the battery came loose when we hit a bump in the road, hitting the metal of the engine compartment or hood, and causing a shower of sparks, a loud bang, and at the same time, the engine to go dead. As we were out of the car trying to address the problem, there came a flash of a bright ball of light up in the clouds. Just one. Then nothing. Was it an alien spaceship that killed our truck???

So, what I think you are saying is to engage brain when senses are telling me something. A good suggestion. However, I still think I see suspects resisting when they say they aren't. I think LEOs expect/want people to relax their arms and stop twisting around, etc, when being cuffed. Is it reasonable to charge a suspect that is doing that? IDK. Probably depends on the level of the resistance. For most officers anyway. Just a guess on my part. Projecting.

P.S. Traditionally, trust nothing you hear from others, and only half of what you read. As regards newsprint today, so to speak, trust nothing you read. Same for talking heads.

 

[RedCardinalSeven]

Thank you Sir!!

You're quite welcome but the appropriate form of address here is "Ma'am". However, please feel free to dispense with such formalities.

I typically treat people how they treat me. I admire your abilities to analyze, your willingness to take the time to go in-depth, and your approach with members when posting!

Thank you for your kind words. Thanks for sharing your elk stories.

So, what I think you are saying is to engage brain when senses are telling me something. A good suggestion. However, I still think I see suspects resisting when they say they aren't. I think LEOs expect/want people to relax their arms and stop twisting around, etc, when being cuffed. Is it reasonable to charge a suspect that is doing that? IDK. Probably depends on the level of the resistance. For most officers anyway. Just a guess on my part. Projecting.

FWIW, I never disputed your claims about resisting arrest. I agree that it certainly looks like a lot of people lie about such activities. However, I was looking at an FBI bulletin about positional asphyxia today and it pointed out that "The natural reaction to oxygen deficiency occurs—the person struggles more violently." The world ain't [always] what it seems.

 

[bbbass]

You're quite welcome but the appropriate form of address here is "Ma'am".

Oooops! Sorry!!!

, I was looking at an FBI bulletin about positional asphyxia today and it pointed out that "The natural reaction to oxygen deficiency occurs—the person struggles more violently."

Yikes! Not what I was thinking of as resisting. By that time, the situation is way past the refusal to be handcuffed stage.