I-5 Coburg Speed Trap

[RallySoob]

Interesting read about the Coburg Speed Trap if you don't know the story:

I'm posting 2 stories on the issue, one old (2004) and one fairly recent (2008)

1st with the old
http://www.prisontalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95860

"The Coburg operation struck Prozanski as illegal and a blatant attempt to raise money rather than improve public safety."


"Hudson's department soon bought gear that seemed extravagant to Smith, such as Heckler & Koch MP5 machine guns with silencers, wristwatches with the Coburg police emblem, and baseball-style photo cards of the chief and his fellow officers.

The department, Smith said, also spent $10,000 a year to lease a computer simulator that trains officers how to handle armed confrontations -- this in a city reporting just 10 violent crimes in a recent three-year period."


"His two-man traffic team rumbled onto I-5 on gleaming Harley-Davidson and BMW motorcycles -- customized to hold AR-15 military rifles -- equipped with radar and ProLaser III speed-measurement guns."




Now with the recent:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/345721_speedtrap02.html

Read More

 

[wichaka]

It always amazes me how people complain about these things....its really a simple fix.

Be an adult, show some responsibility and drive the speed limit.

And you no what? You won't ever have to worry about this.

 

[RallySoob]

It always amazes me how people complain about these things....its really a simple fix.

Be an adult, show some responsibility and drive the speed limit.

And you no what? You won't ever have to worry about this.

unless your blinker just went out and the cop is persistant about giving you a ticket instead of a warning... which is the more likely scenario in coburg.

 

[ZombieAssassin]

It always amazes me how people complain about these things....its really a simple fix.

Be an adult, show some responsibility and drive the speed limit.

And you no what? You won't ever have to worry about this.

You are correct in a lot of cases about just drive the speed limit. However, your statement implies that if you don't drive the speed limit (the need for which can be debated another time), that one is irresponsible and a child. I'm sure you didn't mean to communicate this, and I'm sure you've broken the speed limit many times in your life.

The major point that you missed is PRINCIPALS. Power of the state, in the form of police, is being used to raise money to buy toys. There is no way one can be honest and justify buying a lot of these items. This is morally wrong.

 

[wichaka]

You miss the principals.......obey the law, no problems....its really simple.

There are thousands of vehicles that have passed by there with 'nary a ticket.


You guys are funny.

 

[RallySoob]

You are correct in a lot of cases about just drive the speed limit. However, your statement implies that if you don't drive the speed limit (the need for which can be debated another time), that one is irresponsible and a child. I'm sure you didn't mean to communicate this, and I'm sure you've broken the speed limit many times in your life.

The major point that you missed is PRINCIPALS. Power of the state, in the form of police, is being used to raise money to buy toys. There is no way one can be honest and justify buying a lot of these items. This is morally wrong.

Right on the money.

"Power of the State, in the form of police, is being used to raise money to buy toys"

In this case it's a simple abuse of power by a whole police department that is the issue....Are you a cop Wichaka?

 

[wichaka]

yep, for 22 years.

Haven't written a ticket in 14 years, I have better things to do. But then was CSI for 8 of those years.

Not saying I don't stop a car now and then....but I don't see a need to drop paper on people. But I must admit, some do deserve it.

Overbearing LE's makes us all look bad. Have always had a problem with agencies doing things like that outside their city limits.

But one must understand something, jurisdiction is the state of Wa or Or, as we have powers anywhere in the state. But we get paid by the city or county, which means we should put our resources where the citizens are paying us.

I have received tickets as well. I don't believe in flashing the badge to get out of anything. If i deserve it, I take it, learn from it....be more attentive to my driving.

 

[RallySoob]

yep, for 22 years.

That was obvious....to say the least

 

[needs2hunt]

i don't care if its a speed trap or what if you get caught speeding it's your own damn fault... do the crime do the time... or pay the fine... however you want to look at it... now on the turn signal or brake light being out... how many people do a walk around of there vehicle to check all the lights, even once a month??? yea the cops should give yea a break and give out a warning...


and no I'm not LEO...

 

[RallySoob]

I hear that, but if what they are doing is an illegal and a blatant attempt to raise money rather than improve public safety then it is what is, illegal. And if they are people we trust to uphold the law then it's a huge problem, much more so than speeding. But I do see what you guys are saying. That is why I don't speed through there, ever. And never had a ticket in Coburg either. But come on, Silenced MP5's, baseball cards, and watches? that's just blatent disregard for law and order at the expense of hard working people. everyone speeds at one time or another, "yes, everyone"

 

[needs2hunt]

yea it wrong if they are misappropriating the money to fund these stupid little things.. mp5 with a silencer would be classified is a asset( i know I'd like to have one), and the watches could be classified as part of there uniform...i know that stretching things....

ya i drive most of the time at 4 mph over the posted limit... but i slow down for the known trap area's on I-5,I-90 in Washington. as i know where every little spot is...

 

[ZombieAssassin]

You miss the principals.......obey the law, no problems....its really simple.

There are thousands of vehicles that have passed by there with 'nary a ticket.

Obey this specific law? Sure. However, it's not a logically valid position to say "just obey the law, ignore what the $ is used for, that is a separate issue". The root is the system empowers police to be a higher tiered citizen (some of us are more equal than others), thus the system is abused, and thus it doesn't matter what law you broke, the system enables the collection of $ under color of law. That is wrong if the proceeds are being used for items outside of what is sensible. There are 2 points in this thread: obeying speed limits, and the use of $ in speed traps. Do you deny that police employ speed traps (locations and situations in which the validity of speeding is questionable at best)?

Most speed limits are sensible, but some cops would use people as ATMs to fill the coffers of the state, even if it's 3am and there's no one on the road and you're doing 7 over the limit.

Obey all laws because you are told to do so? Absolutely not. Only a person who enjoys being a slave and living in a totalitarian society would choose to obey what they are told at all times.

Plenty of people obey laws and get punished for it anyway, or are minding their own business and get punished/killed, so I'm sure you meant that most of the time there are no problems, as opposed to every single time.

However, your statement implies that if you don't drive the speed limit (the need for which can be debated another time), that one is irresponsible and a child. I'm sure you didn't mean to communicate this, and I'm sure you've broken the speed limit many times in your life. Do you care to clarify this? Certainly as a moderator you would lead by example and not make personal attacks on people.

 

[wichaka]

First I have no stake in this one way or another. Nor do I stand up for or against them either.

Anyway, there was no personal attack from me. If you took it that way, there's nothing I can do about it.
When I travel I expect no favors from anyone, if I deserve a ticket...that's the way it goes.

As for their use of the money, you'd have to explore what the cities constitution is for line item purchases, as well as RCW. Whether you or anyone else disagrees or not with what they spend the money on, not much one can do if the law allows it. Sure, it may not be right...the only way to change things is to get RCW and/or the city by-laws changed.

ZombieAssassin saidl
"However, your statement implies that if you don't drive the speed limit (the need for which can be debated another time), that one is irresponsible and a child. I'm sure you didn't mean to communicate this, and I'm sure you've broken the speed limit many times in your life. Do you care to clarify this? Certainly as a moderator you would lead by example and not make personal attacks on people."

Read what I wrote......be an adult? Yes, take the responsibility that you went over the speed limit, learn from it and move on. But don't blame others for something you do. Which is my point from the start.

Are there LE's that write tickets for anything you do, up to including wiping your nose wrong?....yep. Is it possible for everyone to obey the law to the letter?....nope. LE's need to understand to allow life to live. But unless there are Admin. willing to pony up, you wont see it.

 

[ZombieAssassin]

Anyway, there was no personal attack from me. If you took it that way, there's nothing I can do about it.

Read what I wrote......be an adult? Yes, take the responsibility that you went over the speed limit, learn from it and move on. But don't blame others for something you do. Which is my point from the start.

You conveniently left out "and be responsible". By your words, not driving the speed limit (ticket or not) means I'm not an adult and I'm irresponsible -- they cannot be interpreted any other way. It is highly illogical and it IS a personal attack to go from "you got a speeding ticket" to "you are irresponsible".

If I say "if you cut yourself shaving, you're a clumsy idiot and should be more careful", would you claim that's not a personal attack and a logical statement?

You should choose your words better. Saying "it's not an attack, not my intention, it's your problem" is the weak way out. A better approach would be to clarify your words, unless you don't give a damn and think people can read minds. If this is the case, then you have no grounds to claim valid statements because you try to shirk honest debate.

Fundamentally we appear to agree. To stay on topic, let me take a stab at it ...... "if you were speeding and got caught, either appear in court to get it dismissed or pay it, but don't pretend that it didn't happen and complain about it". No need to bring up responsibility since it's irrelevant.

 

[swoop]

I have known about Coburg for some time now and always have my high end radar on anyway. If I'm speeding and the cop's stuff is better than mine, I pay, no problem. Anyone ever follow the money taken in from Portland traffic court? Don't even want to know.

 

[BUZO71]

Well, where do you start on something like this. As far as "speed traps-" I think its a word made up by some lawyer and it turned into a great excuse for people to use when they get tickets.

If you are speeding and get caught for speeding (breaking a traffic statute) in the Coburg area, the officer that stops you will not give you discretion. Expect that. Just because other jurisdictions allow for more officer discretion and give more 'warnings' you probably shouldn't expect it.

Also, specifically to the Coburg incident, neither report indicated the officers had done anything illegal regarding traffic stops. Management is what the issue was about. It never said the officers were illegally stopping people or fabricating statutes to generate revenue.

I have to echo Wichaka sentiment. If you don't speed, you don't have to worry. I have had my share of tickets. I don't like getting them but when I do and I committed the offense, I own up to it.

"You conveniently left out "and be responsible". By your words, not driving the speed limit (ticket or not) means I'm not an adult and I'm irresponsible -- they cannot be interpreted any other way. It is highly illogical and it IS a personal attack to go from "you got a speeding ticket" to "you are irresponsible". If you are irresponsible and speed, then you are irresponsible- take it as a personal attack if you want. If I speed, then I am irresponsible and if caught deserve a ticket.

"Obey all laws because you are told to do so? Absolutely not. Only a person who enjoys being a slave and living in a totalitarian society would choose to obey what they are told at all times." Do you decide which laws you obey? How about a CHL, do you have one? Why? IS that one of the laws you like following? So, how many laws do you get to rebel against to be "free?" You sure talk alot for someone that is obeying the law. (Here's a free tip, do pick other people's statements apart- you're not good at it and you come off looking like you're attacking people).

 

[ZombieAssassin]

FAIL. Your self-determination of my skills is laughable. I would hope you laud your "skills". You fail to point out how I don't point out fallacies in a person's statement, thus you have NOTHING, and because it's not possible because the data does not support your statement. If pointint out the lack of logic in one's statements is a personal attack, by your own words, then your own statements are a personal attack.

It's a false statement that isn't supported by data to say "if you don't speed, you don't have to worry". There are plenty of examples one can easily find to prove this wrong.

 

[BUZO71]

 

[wichaka]

Ok, back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

[aflineman]

Sure, it may not be right...the only way to change things is to get RCW and/or the city by-laws changed.

That is not the "only" way to change it. They people buying the stuff could say "No, I'm not buying that".

That being said; if you give me money to spend on making my job easier to do, and more comfortable to do, I WILL spend it.