Home Invasion and Lessons Learned

[tac]

Back in the days when I could impress my will on bowling pins, my favourite load for any of my numerous .44 Mags was 22.0 grains of 2400 behind a cast 250gr flat nose. A good 'connect' would see that pin spinning four or five feet in the air, and recovered bullets were HUGE.

I vowed then that if the law ever changed hereabouts that I would never be without one or other of my shorter barrelled Model 29s, and practiced like crazy every week on my own 25m range to keep up the skill-set, right down to five yards.



Over 8000 full-house rounds and still as tight as a frog's rectum.

tac

 

[mjbskwim]

Didn't read the article, but in general remember that in HD your handgun is only to give you time to fight your way to your long gun.

View attachment 325956

OH YEAH


No.
I've shot similar rounds made by Wolf at a pop can 15' away and didn't hit the can. Maybe they're fine in a shotgun but not worth a dang in a judge type gun. The rifling throws those discs all over.

 

[Meridian7750]

Ok...thanks to all that responded with good info on the Gold Dots.
Looks like it's going to be out with the old (GD 124), and in with the new (HST 147).
With only 6+1 on tap, I want to make sure I'm running a ballistically superior round.
Thanks again

 

[Flopsweat]

Ok...thanks to all that responded with good info on the Gold Dots.
Looks like it's going to be out with the old (GD 124), and in with the new (HST 147).
With only 6+1 on tap, I want to make sure I'm running a ballistically superior round.
Thanks again

Hornady Critical Defense and Critical Duty are very consistent also.

 

[Flopsweat]

No grip safety for me. Excerpt from a 2009 robbery survivor

I continued turning toward him while lowering my pistol to return fire, which evidently put the right hand directly in the line of fire as he squeezed off another round. I can only assume that my hand blocked the shot from hitting my stomach or chest as we were practically face to face at that point. It took me just a second to recover and he started retreating toward the door, backing away from me and shooting. I got two shots off as he was backing away, both missing him. I had the little problem with the next round not going off, thinking I had a jam, I ducked behind the table to clear the gun and yelled for everyone to stay down. I looked down and saw how bad my hands were as I cleared the round out, and stood back up to continue fire. (Looking back on it, I think I realized that I wasn't getting a good grip due to the screwed up hand and neglected to engage the grip safety)

My CCW Shooting AAR--Now with More Graphic Pics on pg 29 & 30 - AR15.COM

I remember reading this thread back when I used to lurk on ARFCOM. This story changed some of my habits and strategies. It's well worth reading.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Ok...thanks to all that responded with good info on the Gold Dots.
Looks like it's going to be out with the old (GD 124), and in with the new (HST 147).
With only 6+1 on tap, I want to make sure I'm running a ballistically superior round.
Thanks again

I just bought a supply of the Federal HSTs in 9mm 147 JHP and .45ACP 230 JHP. Also picked up a pair of Magpul 30 round 5.56 magazines in anticipation of the coming ban in Oregon.

 

[DHart]

There are a lot of factors to discuss here.

Speaking simply of firearms and caliber, I understand the attraction to 9mm pocket pistols, having purchased a PM9 and then a SIG P938 myself. But mine reside in the safe 99.9% of the time. Why?

I find is very easy enough to have much more capable pistol platforms (mid- and full-size pistols chambered in .40S&W and .45auto) and defense ammo (Federal HST and Winchester Ranger) close at hand.

For myself, three pistols top my list of most desireable to have in hand should I need to use a pistol for defense. I routinely choose from these for EDC and one of these or another of similar capability is always within very close reach when I'm around the house.

STI Edge .40S&W with 18-rounds of Federal 180 gr HST
SIG P320 .40S&W Full size with 15-rounds of Federal 180 gr HST
M&P40 with 16-rounds of Federal 180 gr HST

This load, .40S&W 180 gr Federal HST,


has a proven ability to consistently penetrate to 18.5", expand to .72" in ballistic gel tests, and bust through bones without deflecting off course. And, they're quick & soft-shooting from a well-suited .40S&W pistol.

I'll take a short-barrel 9mm if it's all I can get my hands on, but nearly always, I can easily get my hands on larger pistols with more caliber and more capacity.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

There are a lot of factors to discuss here.

Speaking simply of firearms and caliber, I understand the attraction to 9mm pocket pistols, but mine reside in the safe 99.9% of the time. I find is easy enough to have much more capable pistol platforms and defense ammo close at hand. For myself, three pistols top my list of most desireable to have in hand should I need to use a pistol for defense. I routinely carry two of these and one of these or others of similar capability are always within close reach when I'm around the house.

STI Edge .40S&W with 18-rounds of Federal 180 gr HST
SIG P320 .40S&W Full size with 15-rounds of Federal 180 gr HST
M&P40 with 16-rounds of Federal 180 gr HST

This load, .40S&W 180 gr Federal HST,
View attachment 326096

has a proven ability to consistently penetrate to 18.5", expand to .72" in ballistic gel tests, and bust through bones without deflecting off course. And, they're quick & soft-shooting from a well-suited .40S&W pistol.

I'll take a short-barrel 9mm if it's all I can get my hands on, but nearly always, I can easily get my hands on something more capable than that.

If you watch the video link I posted the recovered 9mm HST rounds looked like that and penetrated the FBI standard gelatin block to 13.5", which is in the "ideal" range. I find that my 9mm gets carried a lot more than anything bigger ever has been. It's a trade-off.

 

[Certaindeaf]

You young whippersnappers think you got all the answers. Let me tell you the great thing about .45 rounds: they stay .45 all the way through. A hole is still a hole, and I guess I'd just keep putting half-inch holes in him until the bad guy stops.

Yeabut it's not really a hole.. it's more like a self closing icepick wound. Use a semi-wadcutter that actually makes holes or a good hollow point that will open up.

 

[DHart]

If you watch the video link I posted the recovered 9mm HST rounds looked like that and penetrated the FBI standard gelatin block to 13.5", which is in the "ideal" range. I find that my 9mm gets carried a lot more than anything bigger ever has been. It's a trade-off.

Every choice involves trading off something. I want heavier bullet weight to bust through bones or other barriers, without deflecting, and then continue on with deep penetration. If I can get expansion in addition to that, so much the better. Heavier bullet weight in larger calibers have an advantage in doing this.

As for trade-off, I'm quite comfortable trading off a small amount of "small size and light weight" in exchange for ample capacity of heavier weight bullets, in a larger caliber, and with a more controllable pistol size & weight. My usual carry is:

SIG P320 .40S&W Compact (with 14-rounds of 180 gr HST)


And on the rare occasion when I feel the need to scale down to something smaller and lighter:

M&P40 Compact (with 11 rounds of 180 gr HST)


It is a very, very rare circumstance when I find the need to carry anything smaller or lighter caliber than that. Each of us has different circumstances. If I had to wear slacks or a suit, I may need to scale back to my PM9 or P938. But these days, I'm retired and I wear shorts and a Duluth T-shirt almost all year-around. In winter, I may go with a long-sleeve Duluth T-shirt, rather than short sleeves.

Easy, peasey to carry and conceal a mid-size combat pistol wearing just shorts & t-shirt. Given my circumstances, I see no reason to compromise beyond this.

 

[partsed]

Thanks for the article.

 

[GlockFan1990]

Wow I read the whole story at 1911.com and I have to say this is why my Colt 6920 is my go to HD.

 

[Certaindeaf]

So what's the big deal? The guy shot a guy in the leg and lived to tell about it.. more like write a novel about it.

 

[BlackRyder]

From what I've read about the 9mm round over the last year, I think that it was originally designed to be fired from a 5 inch barrel, which would give the projectile enough velocity to inflict the maximum possible damage. I think the 124 grain Speer gold dots had performance problems when shot through a shorter barrel, like the one used by the man who wrote the original story.
My Walther ppq (4" barrel) seems to be most accurate with 124 grain ammo, so that's what I use as my SD round (Speer gold dots). I think I'm going to switch from standard to +P rounds after reading this thread, though. Would a faster projectile expand more than a slower one in soft tissue?
I'm also going to look into the Hornady and federal sd rounds- the only reason I chose Speer is because that's what my local pd uses.

 

[Flopsweat]

From what I've read about the 9mm round over the last year, I think that it was originally designed to be fired from a 5 inch barrel, which would give the projectile enough velocity to inflict the maximum possible damage. I think the 124 grain Speer gold dots had performance problems when shot through a shorter barrel, like the one used by the man who wrote the original story.
My Walther ppq (4" barrel) seems to be most accurate with 124 grain ammo, so that's what I use as my SD round (Speer gold dots). I think I'm going to switch from standard to +P rounds after reading this thread, though. Would a faster projectile expand more than a slower one in soft tissue?
I'm also going to look into the Hornady and federal sd rounds- the only reason I chose Speer is because that's what my local pd uses.

"Would a faster projectile expand more than a slower one in soft tissue?"
All other factors being equal, yes.

 

[mkwerx]

Keep in mind the 9mm Luger was originally designed over 100 years ago, and aside from dimensions, modern bullets are quite different than the bullets of yesteryear. Same with the .45ACP, .38 S&W Special, etc.

There are rounds now optimized for short barrels and perform well even out of a 3 inch barrel.

Every gun is a trade off and we make the compromises that we trust will save our arse if things break bad. Lots of smaller, easier to control rounds, or fewer bigger rounds that may cause more damage. The .40 S&W is a good compromise if you're willing to make it. There are a number of good high capacity .45s if you don't mind the added weight and cost.

With the number of loads available, almost any handgun caliber will do - if the man behind the gun will. A miss with a .40 is still a miss. A poor hit with a .44 Mag is still a poor hit. A good hit with a 9mm or even .380 is still a good hit, and until directed energy weapons become a thing of reality and not fantasy, we get to have these discussions.

It's good we can all learn from the terrible experiences of others, hopefully we don't find ourselves in their shoes, or make the mistakes they may have made.

 

[GlockFan1990]

The thing to take away from this is DON'T HESITATE!!!! No warning shots, shoot to kill and keep shooting until the threat is eliminated. Of course that's easier to say on a forum then in real life. I hope to god I never have to go through what he did.

 

[DAPSRT]

Many of you have commented on Gold Dot and short barrels. Here is a link to their line up of flavors but if you look toward the bottom of the page you'll see they have specific short barrel loadings.

Speer Ammo - Ballistics Tables

While I agree on the choice of a rifle for home defense, I also encourage you guys to look at your rifle ammo choices just like youre lookin at your pistol ammo choices. FMJ is not the best choice for self defense, despite what the military uses. Only you can choose what suits your location and preference but choose wisely.

 

[UserNameInUse]

Many of you have commented on Gold Dot and short barrels. Here is a link to their line up of flavors but if you look toward the bottom of the page you'll see they have specific short barrel loadings.

In the Ammo Quest videos referenced above there is one where he tested the short barrel Gold Dots and showed no significant difference in performance.

I don't treat these videos as gospel, but his findings seem to agree with the results this person saw.

Up until a couple years ago I maintained you need supersonic velocities to open up hollow points. I've recently seen the light and have come to appreciate the HST bullet design. I still have Hornady XTPs from the 90's that look like all they did was expose some lead on the tip and made a hole.

Folks at the range notice I am shooting hollow points a lot. I'm using up my old inventory.

BTW, I chronographed standard pressure 124gr. HST's at 1079 fps from a 3" barrel. I'm pretty happy with that but from a 4.6" barrel I got 1164 fps. IMO there is no reason to use a compact single stack pistol for home defense unless it is all you have.

 

[Joe13]

The thing to take away from this is DON'T HESITATE!!!! No warning shots

I agree with this.


The rest of it, well you should read back a page or so.


If anyone on here states they are shooting to kill and don't think that will come back to bite you in court (even civil) then your not paying attention or had a very poor instructor in whatever self defense classes.

Even YouTube has a load of videos on the subject.

A gun and no legal education is going to cost you a lot if you ever do defend yourself. You might live but you'll have a cell mate named Ben Dover.