Home defense in Washington

[User 1234]

Terminal Ballistics

Was pointed to a podcast from Primary and Secondary a few weeks ago about terminal ballistics. The panel consists of top notch people, not those that shoot jell-o, but those who have been there and have it done to them along with their study on the matter based on facts, not theory. On the...

www.northwestfirearms.com

The video that Steve Shields posted in 2020 was very informative. It includes a discussion of birdshot. One of the ER docs on the program discussed how ineffective it is at damaging the human body. It tears up skin and could blind a person, but won't reliably stop them from attacking.

 

[gmerkt]

Since you already have a 870....Maybe get a replacement short barrel for it...

Or a hacksaw.

 

[Nosferatu]

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• Nosferatu
• Dec 23, 2021

 

[GWS]

My two shotguns do not have any bird shot. I did buy some less than ammo but if I have to shoot someone with anything other than less than its going to be OO. If my life is on the line I am NOT going to trust bird shot no matter how close they are to me. Most who do keep bird shot will never have to find out if it will work or not since most will go life and never shoot anyone.

You might want to try gel tests on that. Birdshot only stacks at the ~1 yard range, so basically contact distance. Any further than that and you get a wide enough pattern for each individual pellet to act independently. That means a shallow wound. If you want birdshot to drill deep you have to keep the load grouped together with something like wax or remelted lead. But at that point you might want to just switch to an actual engineered load designed for self defense. . .

My experience with this comes from 5 tactical shotgun classes at Front Sight. We used bird shot for very close range shooting because it was less likely to come back at us with dangerous levels of energy. We used paper targets at 3, 5 and 10 yards then steel targets at 15 yards and beyond. At 3 yards the bird shot punched a tight 12 gauge sized hole in the paper, at 5 yards a fist sized hole and at 10 yards I could cover most of the shot holes with my splayed hand but to be fair I have larger sized hands. (BTW, The wadding had enough energy to punch through the paper all the way out to 15 yards depending on the brand of ammo used.)
Now I will add that I was standing on the 3, 5 10 etc, yard lines but the muzzle of my shotgun was significantly closer at those ranges, so maybe subtract 18 to 24 inches from those distances, depending on the shotgun I was using at the time, I was using Remington 3 1/4 dram Game Loads in all of my shotguns when birdshot was called for.

 

[johnny bob]

Great idea. Tons of great ideas. Thank you all for the help— even the nincompoopers

Regarding your first post on this forum yesterday stating you had recently become aware of the semiautomatic centerfire rifle sales ban in Washington. With your Oct 2015 join date on this forum I would think you might have noticed information about the ban sooner as I believe it was discussed many times during that time frame. You should visit more often.

This is a great forum with a great depth of diverse wisdom and humor.

It is easy to become a site supporter by following the links provided. JB

 

[lucusloc]

My experience with this comes from 5 tactical shotgun classes at Front Sight. We used bird shot for very close range shooting because it was less likely to come back at us with dangerous levels of energy. We used paper targets at 3, 5 and 10 yards then steel targets at 15 yards and beyond. At 3 yards the bird shot punched a tight 12 gauge sized hole in the paper, at 5 yards a fist sized hole and at 10 yards I could cover most of the shot holes with my splayed hand but to be fair I have larger sized hands. (BTW, The wadding had enough energy to punch through the paper all the way out to 15 yards depending on the brand of ammo used.)
Now I will add that I was standing on the 3, 5 10 etc, yard lines but the muzzle of my shotgun was significantly closer at those ranges, so maybe subtract 18 to 24 inches from those distances, depending on the shotgun I was using at the time, I was using Remington 3 1/4 dram Game Loads in all of my shotguns when birdshot was called for.

Paper is not the same as flesh and bone. There are numerous medical reports on the terminal effectiveness of birdshot, and none of them support the idea that it is effective for use in self defense at any range. As I said before, I will not tell you not to use it, but I will tell you you should know exactly what you are getting yourself into.

 

[Alexx1401]

Regarding your first post on this forum yesterday stating you had recently become aware of the semiautomatic centerfire rifle sales ban in Washington. With your Oct 2015 join date on this forum I would think you might have noticed information about the ban sooner as I believe it was discussed many times during that time frame. You should visit more often.

This is a great forum with a great depth of diverse wisdom and humor.

It is easy to become a site supporter by following the links provided. JB

Sadly a LOT of gun owners pay little to no attention to what is going on until its too late. Every new law they push out does nothing to slow down crime, they are all aimed at those who do not commit crime. Sadly too many gun owners ignore all of it until it bites them. Often some new gun law goes in and years later gun owners are "just finding out" and boy are they mad that "someone" didn't do something.

 

[Member 53328]

Look up ballistics.

Who's in the house?
How close are your neighbors?
Because 5.56 doesn't stop at Sheetrock.

Avoid birdshot.

 

[GWS]

Paper is not the same as flesh and bone. There are numerous medical reports on the terminal effectiveness of birdshot, and none of them support the idea that it is effective for use in self defense at any range. As I said before, I will not tell you not to use it, but I will tell you you should know exactly what you are getting yourself into.

I wasn't talking about flesh and bone. I was talking about the size of the group/pattern as it hits the target. Nothing more. What I should have said in that post, though was that I only use 00 Buck in my HD shotguns because, and I think we can agree on this, If I have to hit someone to defend myself or loved ones, then I'm going to hit him as hard as I can. But...if for some improbable reason I only had bird shot available to defend myself, I have a very good idea of what it can and cannot do and hopefully use it appropriately.

 

[lucusloc]

Look up ballistics.

Who's in the house?
How close are your neighbors?
Because 5.56 doesn't stop at Sheetrock.

Avoid birdshot.

With proper bullet selection 5.56 is one of the closest things we have to stopping at sheetrock while still maintaining good terminal performance. Granted you actually need that "proper bullet selection" as FMJ will sail through lots of sheetrock, but a good polymer tip hollow point will shatter on the first layer of sheetrock, leaving only low mass shrapnel for the other side. this can usually be completely captured by subsequent layer of sheetrock, so the danger zone is basically behind only one wall. Those same bullets will moderate the expansion in tissue, meaning no shattering and consistently reaching 14-16 inches in gel and dumping all their energy in the mid-range of the wound cavity. Technology is an amazing thing.

 

[JohnnyMac]

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• Nosferatu
• Dec 23, 2021

Something about a gun like that reminds me the owner probably drives a truck like this...

 

[Member 53328]

With proper bullet selection 5.56 is one of the closest things we have to stopping at sheetrock while still maintaining good terminal performance. Granted you actually need that "proper bullet selection" as FMJ will sail through lots of sheetrock, but a good polymer tip hollow point will shatter on the first layer of sheetrock, leaving only low mass shrapnel for the other side. this can usually be completely captured by subsequent layer of sheetrock, so the danger zone is basically behind only one wall. Those same bullets will moderate the expansion in tissue, meaning no shattering and consistently reaching 14-16 inches in gel and dumping all their energy in the mid-range of the wound cavity. Technology is an amazing thing.

I line all my walls with dead bodies so I'm good either way.

 

[eustace_stelio]

3" deer slugs or bust. Liquefy any intruder.

 

[Starslinger]

If you research the ballistics and energy of 357 magnum out of a 16 inch barrel, you will be mighty impressed. In my opinion, a 357 lever gun would be a fine home defense weapon. They are also more fun to practice with because you can reach out to 75 yards or more and they don't beat you up like a 12 gauge shotgun with buckshot does. If a Ruger PC Carbine is legal in Washington, that would also be fun to practice with and reasonably effective for home defense.

 

[bradsteen]

While options are definitely limited, there are still some to choose from. Some of my top picks that you can still actually get are:

Ruger PC Carbine or Charger (if you can find one without a threaded barrel) - 9mm, takes Glock or Ruger mags, light, easy to use.

Lever action 357 - good capacity and powerful cartridge

Pump action shotgun - if you're going for magazine capacity the KelTec KSG or S&W M&P12 are worth a look (14+1), but the ol' traditional pumps are still great home defense options.

Semi auto pistols - as long as they don't have a threaded barrel you can still get any standard semi-auto pistol, you're just stuck with 10rd capacity mags.

PDWs like the Stribog, CZ Scorpion, and MPX are good options (technically still pistols), but I don't know of anyone who makes non-threaded barrels for them. You might be able to find someone willing to pin and weld the thread protector so it is no longer considered a threaded barrel.
*Edit. 1240 sucks worse than I realized.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I've read reports where #4 buck failed because the shootee was wearing a bellowed out (due to body position) leather jacket.
I'd only use 00 or slugs because it's not a time for playing pattacakes.

 

[User 1234]

Ruger Charger (pistol) is banned because the magwell is outside of the pistol grip.

 

[bradsteen]

Ruger Charger (pistol) is banned because the magwell is outside of the pistol grip.

Wow, just reread 1240. You're right. Seems like it gets worse each time. In that case, scratch the Stribog, Scorpion, and MPX.

You could go the MechTech route. Haven't fired mine yet (hope to soon), but it seems pretty handy and lots of folks swear by them.

 

[WEE]

If you want a centerfire rifle, I think this is a way to go in WA state. I recently got one in .357 Mag/.38 Special. For one thing, it has a threaded barrel, which is pretty much illegal now on most rifles. This one gets by because it has a tubular magazine, instead of a removable magazine. Also has side loading capability. Got it through the Bi-Mart website, best price anywhere by several hundred dollars, free shipped to the Port Orchard store. In-store free transfer and took it home an hour later.

 

[sobo]

From the time I was 6 I was shooting a red ryder

Did you shoot your eye out?