Oregon Fostech Echo trigger illegal in Oregon?

[Mr Smith]

people gonna argue about this till they're blue in the face. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you like it, buy it and more power to you.

I like my geissele SSA-E triggers, and recently found out slide fire will work with my 15-22 and a SSA-E trigger...Since I happen to have a lower doing nothing with a SSA-E trigger in it...might swap it into the 15-22 and throw a slide fire on there and do some mag dumps just for fun. It's a 22lr so mag dumps hardly cost much with that.

Just ordered a speed loader for it as well.

 

[Skier]

Maybe someone can help me understand how they are legal in the first place though.

In 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b) the definition of "Machine Gun" is this
"The term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger."

...

Is it just because "function" is not really defined that its been allowed?

My guess is that Franklin Armory decided how they wanted to define "function" and did so:

The revolutionary Binary Firing System™ will be appreciated by three gun competitors, tactical shooters, and recreational enthusiasts. It features a three position selector that allows the user to switch from Mode 1 for Safe, Mode 2 for traditional Semiautomatic Mode, or Mode 3 for Binary Mode. In Binary Mode, the firearm will discharge one round with every function of the trigger whether a pull or a release. A user can negate the round that would otherwise be fired during the release function by simply moving the selector back to Mode 2 and then safely releasing the trigger.

[Emphasis and color Added]

 

[Rem725]

I am sorry, but I cannot accept the binary trigger as safe or wise. Nor do I like bump or slide methods. I guess it's just my opinion.,

 

[EPS]

I think what's happening here is some of these guys just don't get the idea that it's just a fun thing like the slide fire and the crank Gatling gun type trigger is I would think most guys would use it on regular semi but the fun part is that you can just flip the switch and dump a Mag I mean come on man if are going to go to range and just dump Mag's all day your bank account is going to be empty pretty quick just like your ammo Box and your barrel is going to melt off the gun

 

[Jchamp429]

My 2 cents, if its even worth that. ORS 166.210 defines what a machine gun is according to the state, but does not say it is illegal:

166.210 Definitions. As used in ORS 166.250 to 166.270, 166.291 to 166.295 and 166.410 to 166.470:

(6) "Machine gun" means a weapon of any description by whatever name known, loaded or unloaded, which is designed or modified to allow two or more shots to be fired by a single pressure on the trigger device.

Note that this definition is in reference to other specific statutes within chapter 166. Of these, only one even mentions machine guns which is 166.410:

166.410 Manufacture, importation or sale of firearms. Any person who manufactures or causes to be manufactured within this state, or who imports into this state, or offers, exposes for sale, or sells or transfers a handgun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, firearms silencer or machine gun, otherwise than in accordance with ORS 166.250, 166.260, 166.270, 166.291, 166.292, 166.425, 166.450, 166.460 and 166.470, is guilty of a Class B felony. [Amended by 1979 c.779 §5; 1987 c.320 §89; 1989 c.839 §23; 1995 c.729 §7; 2001 c.666 §§34,46; 2003 c.14 §§66,67; 2003 c.614 §9]

As best i can make out, all the statutes referenced in 166.410 have to do with who is legal to poses a firearm, concealed carry, and rules for transfer. Further searching revealed that manufacture is not defined anywhere in chapter 166.

HOWEVER

166.272 Does make mention of machine guns, several times in fact. Oddly, this statute is not referenced in the definitions of 166.210.

166.272 Unlawful possession of machine guns, certain short-barreled firearms and firearms silencers. (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses any machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer.

(2) Unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is a Class B felony.

(3) A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating subsection (1) of this section if the person has in the person's immediate possession documentation showing that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is registered as required under federal law.

(4) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law. [1989 c.839 §13a; 1997 c.749 §8; 1997 c.798 §1

Key point being #3. Sounds like its illegal unless you have paperwork showing that it falls within federal registration compliance, then your good to go. Since federal does not require the registration of these devices, wouldn't an ATF approval letter equal proof of compliance with federal registration law?

I'm no lawyer, but if any of you are i would love to hear your personal (or profession) thoughts on this line of reasoning, seems fairly straight forward to me.

 

[EPS]

My 2 cents, if its even worth that. ORS 166.210 defines what a machine gun is according to the state, but does not say it is illegal:

166.210 Definitions. As used in ORS 166.250 to 166.270, 166.291 to 166.295 and 166.410 to 166.470:

(6) "Machine gun" means a weapon of any description by whatever name known, loaded or unloaded, which is designed or modified to allow two or more shots to be fired by a single pressure on the trigger device.

Note that this definition is in reference to other specific statutes within chapter 166. Of these, only one even mentions machine guns which is 166.410:

166.410 Manufacture, importation or sale of firearms. Any person who manufactures or causes to be manufactured within this state, or who imports into this state, or offers, exposes for sale, or sells or transfers a handgun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, firearms silencer or machine gun, otherwise than in accordance with ORS 166.250, 166.260, 166.270, 166.291, 166.292, 166.425, 166.450, 166.460 and 166.470, is guilty of a Class B felony. [Amended by 1979 c.779 §5; 1987 c.320 §89; 1989 c.839 §23; 1995 c.729 §7; 2001 c.666 §§34,46; 2003 c.14 §§66,67; 2003 c.614 §9]

As best i can make out, all the statutes referenced in 166.410 have to do with who is legal to poses a firearm, concealed carry, and rules for transfer. Further searching revealed that manufacture is not defined anywhere in chapter 166.

HOWEVER

166.272 Does make mention of machine guns, several times in fact. Oddly, this statute is not referenced in the definitions of 166.210.

166.272 Unlawful possession of machine guns, certain short-barreled firearms and firearms silencers. (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses any machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer.

(2) Unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is a Class B felony.

(3) A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating subsection (1) of this section if the person has in the person's immediate possession documentation showing that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is registered as required under federal law.

(4) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law. [1989 c.839 §13a; 1997 c.749 §8; 1997 c.798 §1

Key point being #3. Sounds like its illegal unless you have paperwork showing that it falls within federal registration compliance, then your good to go. Since federal does not require the registration of these devices, wouldn't an ATF approval letter equal proof of compliance with federal registration law?

I'm no lawyer, but if any of you are i would love to hear your personal (or profession) thoughts on this line of reasoning, seems fairly straight forward to me.

My 2 cents, if its even worth that. ORS 166.210 defines what a machine gun is according to the state, but does not say it is illegal:

166.210 Definitions. As used in ORS 166.250 to 166.270, 166.291 to 166.295 and 166.410 to 166.470:

(6) "Machine gun" means a weapon of any description by whatever name known, loaded or unloaded, which is designed or modified to allow two or more shots to be fired by a single pressure on the trigger device.

Note that this definition is in reference to other specific statutes within chapter 166. Of these, only one even mentions machine guns which is 166.410:

166.410 Manufacture, importation or sale of firearms. Any person who manufactures or causes to be manufactured within this state, or who imports into this state, or offers, exposes for sale, or sells or transfers a handgun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, firearms silencer or machine gun, otherwise than in accordance with ORS 166.250, 166.260, 166.270, 166.291, 166.292, 166.425, 166.450, 166.460 and 166.470, is guilty of a Class B felony. [Amended by 1979 c.779 §5; 1987 c.320 §89; 1989 c.839 §23; 1995 c.729 §7; 2001 c.666 §§34,46; 2003 c.14 §§66,67; 2003 c.614 §9]

As best i can make out, all the statutes referenced in 166.410 have to do with who is legal to poses a firearm, concealed carry, and rules for transfer. Further searching revealed that manufacture is not defined anywhere in chapter 166.

HOWEVER

166.272 Does make mention of machine guns, several times in fact. Oddly, this statute is not referenced in the definitions of 166.210.

166.272 Unlawful possession of machine guns, certain short-barreled firearms and firearms silencers. (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses any machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer.

(2) Unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is a Class B felony.

(3) A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating subsection (1) of this section if the person has in the person's immediate possession documentation showing that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is registered as required under federal law.

(4) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law. [1989 c.839 §13a; 1997 c.749 §8; 1997 c.798 §1

Key point being #3. Sounds like its illegal unless you have paperwork showing that it falls within federal registration compliance, then your good to go. Since federal does not require the registration of these devices, wouldn't an ATF approval letter equal proof of compliance with federal registration law?

I'm no lawyer, but if any of you are i would love to hear your personal (or profession) thoughts on this line of reasoning, seems fairly straight forward to me.

The only thing I see where you might be able to fight it is where it say 2 or more shots with the press of the trigger

 

[EPS]

But you can bet that it will probably be illegal sooner or later you can make you AR full auto by accident if you do a 80% lower and don't drill one of the trigger pin holes in the right spot it will cause the catch to miss the sear and it will go full auto and then your in trouble even if you did it by accident or I saw guy on YouTube install spring wrong and it made his gun go full auto also so when go out to test your gun for first time start with 1 round then 2 then 3 because if you put a full Mag in there and something is wrong and you dump that Mag by accident and some one see 's it or there is law enforcement close by your in trouble

 

[safrole]

Honestly I have seen some slide fire videos and I would almost say they are faster than binary triggers. The combo of a 3mr trigger and a slide fire stock sounds insane. I just don't like the looks of them and didn't want to put one on my saint. Also the binary triggers seem more controllable. If I ever get an ak though I'm getting a bumpski for sure they look good on aks

 

[Mr Smith]

Honestly I have seen some slide fire videos and I would almost say they are faster than binary triggers. The combo of a pmr trigger and a slide fire stock sounds insane. I just don't like the looks of them and didn't want to put one on my saint. Also the binary triggers seem more controllable. If I ever get an ak though I'm getting a bumpski for sure they look good on aks

That's the new slide fire 'mod' stock. Adjustable, easier and more comfortable to engage and disengage the slide function, and the finger rest is now removable so you can use the stock full time on your rifle rather than just for bump fire.

 

[F2CMaDMaXX]

I am sorry, but I cannot accept the binary trigger as safe or wise. Nor do I like bump or slide methods. I guess it's just my opinion.,

If you don't understand the use-case for this, it's not going to make sense to you in anyway.

It's a similar thing to people who cannot see any pistol as useful if you can't carry it, or that it has features that make it unsuitable for carrying.

There are multiple uses and desires for firearms, some people only like one or two aspects of that, which is fine, but they sometimes get hung up on people wanting/having any uses other than their own.

 

[safrole]

T

View attachment 344665

That's the new slide fire 'mod' stock. Adjustable, easier and more comfortable to engage and disengage the slide function, and the finger rest is now removable so you can use the stock full time on your rifle rather than just for bump fire.

That's a good looking bump fire but I still didn't really want to change the furniture on my factory rifle. If I was doing a build a 3mr trigger with that bump fire would be pretty cool I guess.

 

[NoLimePlease]

Damn. I read all four pages of this thread and still don't find any reason to think I can safely buy one of these triggers without jeopardizing my lawfulness.
Bummed.
I want one.

 

[Plan-B]

Damn. I read all four pages of this thread and still don't find any reason to think I can safely buy one of these triggers without jeopardizing my lawfulness.
Bummed.
I want one.

LOL. And 5 weeks later, I do the same thing you did. Crazy expensive, but I still really want one.

 

[The Heretic]

Damn. I read all four pages of this thread and still don't find any reason to think I can safely buy one of these triggers without jeopardizing my lawfulness.
Bummed.
I want one.

Have not read the whole thread, but what if a person did not have an AR to put it into?

By itself it is not a firearm like feds claim with auto-sears. Off the top of my head I don't know of any Orygun law that prohibits the possession of one of these - only - possibly - a firearm that shoots more than once with the pull of a trigger.

 

[MilitantBEEMER]

Very tempting as DVOR has the Gen III kits for $350 and Franklin has them on sale for $382....

 

[Velzey]

After trying the Digitrigger, I wouldn't even give the others a second look.

 

[The Heretic]

After trying the Digitrigger, I wouldn't even give the others a second look.

Expensive! $500 to $600 for a trigger group? Woof!

Requires a battery - albeit if the battery fails then trigger still operates.

Versatile. I assume it works with any BCG or upper? Even a blowback upper like the AR 57? A beltfed upper?

Hmmm....

 

[Velzey]

I've tried it in the AR57 and I hated it. I never knew I could blow thru $27 a box ammo in 5 seconds flat. 50 rounds gone!

Yes it takes a 9volt battery that sits nicely in the grip. Honesty what I like about it is the single trigger pull. Turn it on and you have a trigger pull similar to a Winchester 52 or other high end target rifle.
Works with all BCG's.
When the trigger is off it feels like the standard AR15 trigger, nothing special. Switch it to single pull and the same trigger that felt like the bone stock DPMS or Palmetto $45 lower parts kit trigger, now has the pull of a high end target rifle ( as it very well should for the price)

They really need to control their trigger finger a little better in that belt fed video!

 

[The Heretic]

You need to shop around for ammo. I buy Federal 40 gr. FMJ 5.7 for $15 per box of 50, and FN 40 gr. ballistic tip for $18 per box from PSA regularly. They have a sale on it about once a month. I just got 500 rounds of FN ammo delivered this week - free shipping when buying 10 boxes or more. That is on par with Federal 5.56 ball ammo and expanding 5.56 ammo.

Not really wanting an AR57 since I already have a PS90, but just wondering how it would work with such uppers.

I think it is the Fostech where they recommend you get their lighter somehow better BCG to work correctly with the trigger?

 

[Stomper]

My 2 cents, if its even worth that. ORS 166.210 defines what a machine gun is according to the state, but does not say it is illegal:

166.210 Definitions. As used in ORS 166.250 to 166.270, 166.291 to 166.295 and 166.410 to 166.470:

(6) "Machine gun" means a weapon of any description by whatever name known, loaded or unloaded, which is designed or modified to allow two or more shots to be fired by a single pressure on the trigger device.

Note that this definition is in reference to other specific statutes within chapter 166. Of these, only one even mentions machine guns which is 166.410:

166.410 Manufacture, importation or sale of firearms. Any person who manufactures or causes to be manufactured within this state, or who imports into this state, or offers, exposes for sale, or sells or transfers a handgun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, firearms silencer or machine gun, otherwise than in accordance with ORS 166.250, 166.260, 166.270, 166.291, 166.292, 166.425, 166.450, 166.460 and 166.470, is guilty of a Class B felony. [Amended by 1979 c.779 §5; 1987 c.320 §89; 1989 c.839 §23; 1995 c.729 §7; 2001 c.666 §§34,46; 2003 c.14 §§66,67; 2003 c.614 §9]

As best i can make out, all the statutes referenced in 166.410 have to do with who is legal to poses a firearm, concealed carry, and rules for transfer. Further searching revealed that manufacture is not defined anywhere in chapter 166.

HOWEVER

166.272 Does make mention of machine guns, several times in fact. Oddly, this statute is not referenced in the definitions of 166.210.

166.272 Unlawful possession of machine guns, certain short-barreled firearms and firearms silencers. (1) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer if the person knowingly possesses any machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer.

(2) Unlawful possession of a machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is a Class B felony.

(3) A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating subsection (1) of this section if the person has in the person's immediate possession documentation showing that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer is registered as required under federal law.

(4) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section that the machine gun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun or firearms silencer was registered as required under federal law. [1989 c.839 §13a; 1997 c.749 §8; 1997 c.798 §1

Key point being #3. Sounds like its illegal unless you have paperwork showing that it falls within federal registration compliance, then your good to go. Since federal does not require the registration of these devices, wouldn't an ATF approval letter equal proof of compliance with federal registration law?

I'm no lawyer, but if any of you are i would love to hear your personal (or profession) thoughts on this line of reasoning, seems fairly straight forward to me.

That's brucking filliant work using those ORS's to show they're good to go, even in Oregon!