Firearms Laws and Questions

[zulma_jairo]

Hey everyone! I don't know if this has been asked already but is it legal for some under 21 but over 18 to buy a Handgun from a Non-FFL in WA? Thanks.

 

[m1gunr]

Hey everyone! I don't know if this has been asked already but is it legal for some under 21 but over 18 to buy a Handgun from a Non-FFL in WA? Thanks.

So you want to buy a pistol at the age 18 from a private seller? Lets go look at Title 18 USC 922 the section on Unlawful Acts (subsection X)
<broken link removed>

which states:
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile:
(A) a handgun;or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.

So the Feds allow you to buy a handgun at 18 from private sellers but according to Washington RCW 9.41.240 you can only carry it on your own property. WRONG because RCW 9.41.060 provides an exception for 9.41.240 as well as 9.41.050 (concealed about your person & loaded in a vehicle). Specifically look at sections 7 & 8 in RCW 9.41.060. Because of this exception you can carry that pistol concealed about your person if you are a member of a gun collector club (think WAC), going to and from the events. If you meet the requirements in section 8 (hiking, hunting, fishing, etc), you may carry that pistol to and from that activity as well.

I am in contact with the Board of Directors from WAC and am working on rule changes for them that will allow 18-20yo Associate Members who have passed a background check to carry and buy handguns from private sellers at the shows. I'll keep you posted. - M1Gunr

I am not a lawyer and this is by no means legal advice.

RCW 9.41.240
Possession of pistol by person from eighteen to twenty-one.
Unless an exception under RCW 9.41.042, 9.41.050, or 9.41.060 applies, a person at least eighteen years of age, but less than twenty-one years of age, may possess a pistol only:
(1) In the person's place of abode;
(2) At the person's fixed place of business; or
(3) On real property under his or her control.

RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.
(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.
(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.
(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.
(3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.
(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.
(4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.

RCW 9.41.060
Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.
The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:
(1) Marshals, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens or their deputies, or other law enforcement officers of this state or another state;
(2) Members of the armed forces of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves, when on duty;
(3) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed pistol;
(4) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of the person, if possessing, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of the business;
(5) Regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive pistols from the United States or from this state;
(6) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting, when those members are at or are going to or from their places of target practice;

(7) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of modern and antique firearm collecting, when those members are at or are going to or from their collector's gun shows and exhibits;

(8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

(9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or
(10) Law enforcement officers retired for service or physical disabilities, except for those law enforcement officers retired because of mental or stress-related disabilities. This subsection applies only to a retired officer who has: (a) Obtained documentation from a law enforcement agency within Washington state from which he or she retired that is signed by the agency's chief law enforcement officer and that states that the retired officer was retired for service or physical disability; and (b) not been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of a crime making him or her ineligible for a concealed pistol license.

Title 18 USC Section 922 - Unlawful acts (see subsection X)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile:
(A) a handgun;or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
(2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess:
(A) a handgun;or
(B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

(3) This subsection does not apply to:
(A) a temporary transfer of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile or to the possession or use of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile if the handgun and ammunition are possessed and used by the juvenile:
(i) in the course of employment, in the course of ranching or farming related to activities at the residence of the juvenile (or on property used for ranching or farming at which the juvenile, with the permission of the property owner or lessee, is performing activities related to the operation of the farm or ranch), target practice, hunting, or a course of instruction in the safe and lawful use of a handgun;
(ii) with the prior written consent of the juvenile's parent or guardian who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from possessing a firearm, except:
(I) during transportation by the juvenile of an unloaded handgun in a locked container directly from the place of transfer to a place at which an activity described in clause (i) is to take place and transportation by the juvenile of that handgun, unloaded and in a locked container, directly from the place at which such an activity took place to the transferor or;
(II) with respect to ranching or farming activities as described in clause(i), a juvenile may possess and use a handgun or ammunition with the prior written approval of the juvenile's parent or legal guardian and at the direction of an adult who is not prohibited by Federal, State or local law from possessing a firearm;
(iii) the juvenile has the prior written consent in the juvenile's possession at all times when a handgun is in the possession of the juvenile; and
(iv) in accordance with State and local law;
(B) a juvenile who is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard who possesses or is armed with a handgun in the line of duty;
(C) a transfer by inheritance of title (but not possession) of a handgun or ammunition to a juvenile;or
(D) the possession of a handgun or ammunition by a juvenile taken in defense of the juvenile or other persons against an intruder into the residence of the juvenile or a residence in which the juvenile is an invited guest.
(4) A handgun or ammunition, the possession of which is transferred to a juvenile in circumstances in which the transferor is not in violation of this subsection shall not be subject to permanent confiscation by the Government if its possession by the juvenile subsequently becomes unlawful because of the conduct of the juvenile, but shall be returned to the lawful owner when such handgun or ammunition is no longer required by the Government for the purposes of investigation or prosecution.
(5) For purposes of this subsection, the term "juvenile" means a person who is less than 18 years of age.

 

[RICKRWS]

Hello
I am planingon going to the oregon gun show that will be held in Clark county fair grounds in washington. I am thinking about buying a Ruger Mark III.
So if I buy one am I going to have to pay a FFL fee and washington taxes and a back round check fee. I already been told that I cannot buy a hand gun in oregon.
Most of the dealer at the show are from oregon. I am looking at fees of about $150 extra. wow. Well I am still new at this and trying to understand it.
Do Gun shows have diferent Laws? Thanks

 

[Kimber Custom]

No, gun shows do not have different laws; they must follow state and federal law. OR does have a law that mandates Private Party transactions that take place at a gun show must do a BG check but that's not really what you were asking about.

There is no FFL fee in either OR or WA. That would only apply if you ordered the gun online and used a local FFL to do your transfer.

Yes, you will have to pay sales tax if you purchase through an FFL. WA does not charge for the background check.

Hope that helps.

Mark III is a great gun BTW.

 

[BBQ Ross]

Have run through many pages of this thread and have not found clear statement or ORS proof of how to carry a weapon in my vehicle.... I hope someone here can point me in the proper direction.

I do not have a CWL yet but would consider doing so if it permitted me to keep a handgun in my vehicle. Curious about the rules surrounding a weapon in one's vehicle.

I appreciate any assistance, in the form of a link or just a point in the right direction.

Thanks NWFA

 

[Frog]

That's because without a CHL, every village, town, city and county has different laws. Without a CHL, most places require the firearm to be transported 'visually'. You'd have to check every ordinance & by-law of 'everywhere' to know what is, and what is not, legal. Being stopped on the wrong side of a traffic light can cost you 'big time'!

Get a CHL, and you can carry your firearm legally in most places.

Frog.

 

[MikeSettles]

That's because without a CHL, every village, town, city and county has different laws. Without a CHL, most places require the firearm to be transported 'visually'. You'd have to check every ordinance & by-law of 'everywhere' to know what is, and what is not, legal. Being stopped on the wrong side of a traffic light can cost you 'big time'!

Get a CHL, and you can carry your firearm legally in most places.

Frog.

The fix for this problem is State-level Preemption: No subordinate jurisdiction may ordain anything more strict than state law. Washington & Oregon both have this. I don't know where to find Oregon's, but here is the link to Washington RCW: RCW 9.41.290: State preemption.

The ABSOLUTE fix should be Federal Preemption - in the form of the 2nd Amendment (as this country had before the Civil War, when any attempt at "Gun Control" was met with a court's admonition that such would be "repugnant to the Constitution").

Cheers!

 

[BBQ Ross]

Thanks for the information, I will check into my particular area and move on accordingly.

 

[orygunmike]

For citizens carrying a handgun in their vehicle in Oregon WITHOUT a Concealed Handgun License, the law was just changed in 2011.


166.250. (1) ... a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:

(b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle; or . . .

Definition of "readily accessible" [ORS 166.250(4) "... a handgun is readily accessible within the meaning of this section if the handgun is within the passenger compartment of the vehicle..."

b) If a vehicle has no storage location that is outside the passenger compartment of the vehicle, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:

(A) The handgun is stored in a closed and locked glove compartment, center console or other container; and

(B) The key is not inserted into the lock, if the glove compartment, center console or other container unlocks with a key.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No such prohibition exists for a longun (rifle or shotgun). WITH an Oregon CHL, you can carry any type of firearm anywhere in your vehicle, or on yourself, in any condition (loaded, unloaded)

I often tell my students, even those who have no intention of ever carrying a concealed pistol, that getting a CHL insulates and protects them from a variety of situations that could otherwise land them in legal trouble for having a gun in their possession.

Have run through many pages of this thread and have not found clear statement or ORS proof of how to carry a weapon in my vehicle.... I hope someone here can point me in the proper direction.

I do not have a CWL yet but would consider doing so if it permitted me to keep a handgun in my vehicle. Curious about the rules surrounding a weapon in one's vehicle.

I appreciate any assistance, in the form of a link or just a point in the right direction.

Thanks NWFA

 

[MonkeyMagic]

No, gun shows do not have different laws; they must follow state and federal law. OR does have a law that mandates Private Party transactions that take place at a gun show must do a BG check but that's not really what you were asking about.

There is no FFL fee in either OR or WA. That would only apply if you ordered the gun online and used a local FFL to do your transfer.

Yes, you will have to pay sales tax if you purchase through an FFL. WA does not charge for the background check.

Does that mean that an OR resident (non FFL) can buy a gun (rifle/shotgun/pistol) from a WA resident (non FFL) at a gun show in WA and bring it back to OR ... or vise versa? or did I misunderstand something?

 

[Malibu38368]

The fix for this problem is State-level Preemption: No subordinate jurisdiction may ordain anything more strict than state law. Washington & Oregon both have this. I don't know where to find Oregon's, but here is the link to Washington RCW: RCW 9.41.290: State preemption.

Oregon actually has an exception to the state-level preemption, allowing cities or counties to adopt ordinances regulating, restricting or possessing loaded firearms in public places. ORS 166.173(1). Subsection (2) prevents such ordinances from applying to certain classes, including those holding valid CHLs.

Does that mean that an OR resident (non FFL) can buy a gun (rifle/shotgun/pistol) from a WA resident (non FFL) at a gun show in WA and bring it back to OR ... or vise versa? or did I misunderstand something?

Not under federal law, if you're talking about a FTF transfer. You can loan a firearm to anyone not otherwise prohibited from possessing one, regardless of where you or they live. But you may only permanently transfer one to a resident of your state. See 18 U.S.C. § 922. You could do this through a Washington FFL, however.

I actually ran across this situation last year, and called the local ATF office for their opinion. The guy I spoke with said that, in their (or at least his) experience, the most common federal firearms violation is the fairly simple situation where a guy in Oregon buys himself a new hunting rifle, then gives his old one to his brother from, say, Ohio when he visits for Christmas. The brother from Ohio then takes it home. That's technically illegal, but the ATF apparently doesn't care about going after people for that kind of thing. I would never suggest doing this, however, and I wouldn't rely on the opinion of one agent on the matter, either.

 

[sheepdip]

I am currently working on a deal [handgun] with a guy in california. I am in oregon, as I understand it only one ffl has to be involved, the one on his end. correct? as long as I am on the up and up with the shipping co. [ups]

 

[phathom]

I am currently working on a deal [handgun] with a guy in california. I am in oregon, as I understand it only one ffl has to be involved, the one on his end. correct? as long as I am on the up and up with the shipping co. [ups]

Absolutely not. The gun has to be shipped from FFL to FFL over state lines. If you were able to meet in person at that one FFL in his state, than you would only need to deal with that one, otherwise you need to use a FFL up here.

 

[sheepdip]

thanks phathom

 

[orygunmike]

Phathom is correct that you need to work with a FFL for INTERstate transfers of a firearm. However, the transfer must take place in the purchaser's state. So if the seller was able to come into Oregon and you met at a FFL, the transaction could take place there.

Absolutely not. The gun has to be shipped from FFL to FFL over state lines. If you were able to meet in person at that one FFL in his state, than you would only need to deal with that one, otherwise you need to use a FFL up here.

 

[sheepdip]

tried to work a legal deal but with transfer fees, shipping, insurance, and the cost of the gun the deal is dead. the guy in cal. said transfer fees on his end were $150.00. that is pretty much a deal breaker right there.

 

[pchewn]

tried to work a legal deal but with transfer fees, shipping, insurance, and the cost of the gun the deal is dead. the guy in cal. said transfer fees on his end were $150.00. that is pretty much a deal breaker right there.

What is this "transfer fee", who is it paid to, and why is it required?

 

[pietro beretta]

According to a 21 Sep 2011 "Open Letter to All Federal Firearms Licensees" from ATF, holders of state-issued medical marijuana cards are automatically "prohibited persons" under 18 U.S.C 922(g)(3) and "shipping, transporting, receiving or possessing firearms or ammunition" by a medical marijuana card holder is a violation.

 

[G1GRANDEUR]

I have a question about private firearm sale in WA state.

I am planing to sell a handgun locally, so I am going to check buyer's WA issued DL and CCW permit.

Do I need to write down his information just in case? (such as full name/address/phone number/DL number/ CCW permit number)

 

[MikeSettles]

I have a question about private firearm sale in WA state.

I am planing to sell a handgun locally, so I am going to check buyer's WA issued DL and CCW permit.

Do I need to write down his information just in case? (such as full name/address/phone number/DL number/ CCW permit number)

This, as a private transaction within your home state, doesn't legally require any paperwork. No one is allowed to transfer a firearm to a "prohibited person", and if you wish to guarantee such you COULD only sell to a current CHL holder. We, as private citizens, don't have access to the FBI NICS, so that's not an option. However, to put the onus on the buyer (and cover your butt), you could do a bill of sale, and include that the buyer certifies that he/she is not prohibited under current law from possessing firearms.

My 2 cents. Cheers!