Firearms Laws and Questions

[MikeSettles]

You must not only deal with Oregon Law, but also with the Feds.

Federal Law says that you can't purchase anything but a rifle or shotgun from an FFL:
Title 18 US Code, Chapter 44:
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

Title 922: Unlawful acts
sub-paragraph (x) says that no one may transfer a handgun to a "juvenile", and that it's unlawful for a "juvenile" to possess a handgun except in certain circumstances.
18 USC § 5031 - Definitions:
"For the purposes of this chapter, a "juvenile" is a person who has not attained his eighteenth birthday, or for the purpose of proceedings and disposition under this chapter for an alleged act of juvenile delinquency, a person who has not attained his twenty-first birthday, and "juvenile delinquency" is the violation of a law of the United States committed by a person prior to his eighteenth birthday which would have been a crime if committed by an adult or a violation by such a person of section 922 (x)."

Convoluted, but I THINK it means that (under Fed Law) you (under 21) may not own a handgun, nor possess one except under certain circumstances.
Here's the link at Cornell Law for Title 18 USC: 18 USC Part I - CRIMES | LII / Legal Information Institute

Kevin Starrett of the Oregon Firearms Federation has a book out: "Understanding Oregon's Gun Laws". I got mine at Fisherman's Marine Supply for $12.95. He references https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors166.html and Title 18, USC.

 

[hermannr]

Hi gentlemen, I'm back with another question, it seems fairly simple enough to answer but I haven't found a solid answer yet.

I'm 20 years old, I turn 20 in June (2 months from now). My understanding is that I can legally buy a long gun and long gun ammunition legally from stores and I cannot buy a handgun or handgun ammunition until I turn 21. My question: Am I restricted from buying a handgun commercially only? Am I allowed to make a private purchase of a handgun? Or can I not purchase a handgun at all, whether the transaction is commercial or private until I'm 21? I've saved enough money to buy my first handgun (a Glock 19 nonetheless) but if I'm going to have to wait til June I'm afraid I'm gonna end up blowing my money on stupid stuff instead. lol.

Thanks in advance.

The only problem you have is the restriction on an FFL SELLING you a handgun. You do not have a restriction on purchasing...THEY have a restriction on selling a handgun to you if you are under 21. You may purchase a handgun from a non-federally licensed person (someone that is not an FFL) So yes, you may purchase a handgun when you are 18-21 froma private party.

Once you have posession, know you state laws, and be safe.

 

[Dinged]

You must not only deal with Oregon Law, but also with the Feds.

Federal Law says that you can't purchase anything but a rifle or shotgun from an FFL:
Title 18 US Code, Chapter 44:
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

Title 922: Unlawful acts
sub-paragraph (x) says that no one may transfer a handgun to a "juvenile", and that it's unlawful for a "juvenile" to possess a handgun except in certain circumstances.
18 USC § 5031 - Definitions:
"For the purposes of this chapter, a "juvenile" is a person who has not attained his eighteenth birthday, or for the purpose of proceedings and disposition under this chapter for an alleged act of juvenile delinquency, a person who has not attained his twenty-first birthday, and "juvenile delinquency" is the violation of a law of the United States committed by a person prior to his eighteenth birthday which would have been a crime if committed by an adult or a violation by such a person of section 922 (x)."

Convoluted, but I THINK it means that (under Fed Law) you (under 21) may not own a handgun, nor possess one except under certain circumstances.
Here's the link at Cornell Law for Title 18 USC: 18 USC Part I - CRIMES | LII / Legal Information Institute

Kevin Starrett of the Oregon Firearms Federation has a book out: "Understanding Oregon's Gun Laws". I got mine at Fisherman's Marine Supply for $12.95. He references https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors166.html and Title 18, USC.

Yeah the wording of that threw me off,

The only problem you have is the restriction on an FFL SELLING you a handgun. You do not have a restriction on purchasing...THEY have a restriction on selling a handgun to you if you are under 21. You may purchase a handgun from a non-federally licensed person (someone that is not an FFL) So yes, you may purchase a handgun when you are 18-21 froma private party.

Once you have posession, know you state laws, and be safe.

That's what I figured but I wasn't 100% sure.

Thanks both for the replies.

 

[hermannr]

You must not only deal with Oregon Law, but also with the Feds.

Federal Law says that you can't purchase anything but a rifle or shotgun from an FFL:
Title 18 US Code, Chapter 44:
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

Title 922: Unlawful acts
sub-paragraph (x) says that no one may transfer a handgun to a "juvenile", and that it's unlawful for a "juvenile" to possess a handgun except in certain circumstances.
18 USC § 5031 - Definitions:
"For the purposes of this chapter, a "juvenile" is a person who has not attained his eighteenth birthday, or for the purpose of proceedings and disposition under this chapter for an alleged act of juvenile delinquency, a person who has not attained his twenty-first birthday, and "juvenile delinquency" is the violation of a law of the United States committed by a person prior to his eighteenth birthday which would have been a crime if committed by an adult or a violation by such a person of section 922 (x)."

Convoluted, but I THINK it means that (under Fed Law) you (under 21) may not own a handgun, nor possess one except under certain circumstances.
Here's the link at Cornell Law for Title 18 USC: 18 USC Part I - CRIMES | LII / Legal Information Institute

Kevin Starrett of the Oregon Firearms Federation has a book out: "Understanding Oregon's Gun Laws". I got mine at Fisherman's Marine Supply for $12.95. He references https://www.oregonlegislature.gov/bills_laws/ors/ors166.html and Title 18, USC.

Mike read a bit more carefully....The restriction is on Federally licensed Firearm DEALERS...not the purchaser. It is unlawful for a DEALER to SELL a pistol to someone under 21 years old, it does not mean it is illegal for someone between 18 and 21 to PURCHASE. The problem, and the law, is for the FFL not the person between 18 and 21.

Also, the definition of "Juvenile" is someone under 18, not applicable to anyone between 18 and 21. We are not talking about someune UNDER age 18 here. Dinged has stated he is 20.

 

[MikeSettles]

Mike read a bit more carefully....The restriction is on Federally licensed Firearm DEALERS...not the purchaser. It is unlawful for a DEALER to SELL a pistol to someone under 21 years old, it does not mean it is illegal for someone between 18 and 21 to PURCHASE. The problem, and the law, is for the FFL not the person between 18 and 21.

Also, the definition of "Juvenile" is someone under 18, not applicable to anyone between 18 and 21. We are not talking about someune UNDER age 18 here. Dinged has stated he is 20.

Herman, I agree about what it SAYS. How is it used in PRACTICE? Which federal prosecutor/ATF supervisor, etc., etc. will use a private-party transfer to an 18-20-year-old to increase his conviction rate? Pardon me for being wary (a little paranoid): ATF has a track-record of going after law-abiding gun owners, collectors, FFLs, rather than bad folks who actually intended to break laws and cause harm.

 

[hermannr]

Herman, I agree about what it SAYS. How is it used in PRACTICE? Which federal prosecutor/ATF supervisor, etc., etc. will use a private-party transfer to an 18-20-year-old to increase his conviction rate? Pardon me for being wary (a little paranoid): ATF has a track-record of going after law-abiding gun owners, collectors, FFLs, rather than bad folks who actually intended to break laws and cause harm.

Go ahead, break your computer trying...they don't even charge people, let alone convict and appeal the conviction. There is no federal law on possession, (other than the "prohibited persons") there is only a federal law on LICENSED DEALERS selling to under 21. (IMHO is stupid, but then that is the law)

If you are a resident of WA, OR, ID, NV...etc (go to handgunlaw.us and check every state)...there are restrictions on 18 year olds having a CPL in some states (WA is one), there are restrictions on an 18 year old carrying (WA is one...recreation and shoot range only, also stupid) but there is no restriction on owning or selling, except for the federal restrictions on LICENSED DEALERS.

In certain cases, a person from 18-21 can even have a CPL in ID...(That is the reason WA does not recognize ID) However, even with a CPL, the person under 21 cannot purchase from a LICENSED DEALER because of federal law. Read RCW 9.41. That is the law in WA...or ORS 166 if you are interested in Oregon...there is no restrictions on the private sale of a handgun to anyone 18 or over...Remember, the definition of a "Juvenile", is someone that has NOT attained their 18th birthday....OK?

 

[jordanka16]

Federal law doesn't regulate transactions between private citizens who are in the same state (except for things like machine guns or SBRs). Each individual state sets the rules for that. In OR you have to be 18 to own a firearm (any firearm), and the only restrictions on purchasing come from FFL dealers (who have to follow federal law). It is up to the individual state to regulate private sales how they want, and OR has no restrictions beyond the typical ones, not being a felon etc., so as long as you are 18 you can buy any type of firearm from a private citizen.

 

[MikeSettles]

Go ahead, break your computer trying...they don't even charge people, let alone convict and appeal the conviction. There is no federal law on possession, (other than the "prohibited persons") there is only a federal law on LICENSED DEALERS selling to under 21. (IMHO is stupid, but then that is the law)

If you are a resident of WA, OR, ID, NV...etc (go to handgunlaw.us and check every state)...there are restrictions on 18 year olds having a CPL in some states (WA is one), there are restrictions on an 18 year old carrying (WA is one...recreation and shoot range only, also stupid) but there is no restriction on owning or selling, except for the federal restrictions on LICENSED DEALERS.

In certain cases, a person from 18-21 can even have a CPL in ID...(That is the reason WA does not recognize ID) However, even with a CPL, the person under 21 cannot purchase from a LICENSED DEALER because of federal law. Read RCW 9.41. That is the law in WA...or ORS 166 if you are interested in Oregon...there is no restrictions on the private sale of a handgun to anyone 18 or over...Remember, the definition of a "Juvenile", is someone that has NOT attained their 18th birthday....OK?

Herman, your arguments are cogent, and I stand corrected. Thanks. I will do better research in future (though my gut says that the Feds will go after people who are no threat, and ignore the ones who are. Check out the 1982 Senate report, which said that there was much evidence of ATF attacking collectors and FFLs to discourage them, and not going after the real bad guys. If anything, since Waco & Ruby Ridge it's gotten worse. <broken link removed> check out the section entitled "ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL FIREARMS LAWS FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT")

 

[hermannr]

Herman, your arguments are cogent, and I stand corrected. Thanks. I will do better research in future (though my gut says that the Feds will go after people who are no threat, and ignore the ones who are. Check out the 1982 Senate report, which said that there was much evidence of ATF attacking collectors and FFLs to discourage them, and not going after the real bad guys. If anything, since Waco & Ruby Ridge it's gotten worse. <broken link removed> check out the section entitled "ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL FIREARMS LAWS FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT")

That is because the ATF as an organization is a bully and thrives on fear.

Same reason a lot of people will not Open Carry...completely legal in OR, WA and ID (and 40 something other states) but the "enforcement" bullies and their anti allies want people to think they will get in trouble and be hasseled....And one of the reasons I OC...I know the law and I refuse to be bullied, or be a victim.

Remember, I am not talking about individuals here, but organizations. The discription does not fit all the individuals in these organizations, but in places it is institutionalized.

 

[MikeSettles]

That is because the ATF as an organization is a bully and thrives on fear.

Same reason a lot of people will not Open Carry...completely legal in OR, WA and ID (and 40 something other states) but the "enforcement" bullies and their anti allies want people to think they will get in trouble and be hasseled....And one of the reasons I OC...I know the law and I refuse to be bullied, or be a victim.

Remember, I am not talking about individuals here, but organizations. The discription does not fit all the individuals in these organizations, but in places it is institutionalized.

I VERY MUCH agree with you! This activity by such organizations will continue until there is a legal means to go after those individuals who make the policies, and against the agents who enforce them. Sadly, many states have enacted "immunity" for such individuals. Why else would those folks believe themselves above the law, and ignore the Constitution?

 

[kbc9]

I am in WA and I want to buy a rifle from a FFL dealer in OR. Does it need to be shipped to a FFL in WA to transfer or can the OR FFL ship it directly to me? If the FFL dealer in OR can ship directly to me then how does the OR FFL conduct a NICS check? I am confused.

 

[Dan-Dee Sales Inc]

I am in WA and I want to buy a rifle from a FFL dealer in OR. Does it need to be shipped to a FFL in WA to transfer or can the OR FFL ship it directly to me? If the FFL dealer in OR can ship directly to me then how does the OR FFL conduct a NICS check? I am confused.

Ship to WA dealer. not directly to you. You can also come across the border and do the background check in Oregon. Handguns and receivers still need to ship to your FFL in WA.

 

[MikeSettles]

Ship to WA dealer. not directly to you. You can also come across the border and do the background check in Oregon. Handguns and receivers still need to ship to your FFL in WA.

Interstate sales of long-guns are entirely legal between Washington and Oregon: You only need to have the rifle shipped if you live far enough away that it would not be feasible to go get it yourself from the Oregon FFL. However, interstate sales between private parties must go through (at least) a Washington FFL (in the case of those of us who live in the Evergreen State).

Cheers!

 

[kbc9]

Interstate sales of long-guns are entirely legal between Washington and Oregon: You only need to have the rifle shipped if you live far enough away that it would not be feasible to go get it yourself from the Oregon FFL. However, interstate sales between private parties must go through (at least) a Washington FFL (in the case of those of us who live in the Evergreen State).

Cheers!

So I can legallly purchase from the FFL in oregon over the phone and he can ship it directly to me? So is he going to just a do NICS check over the phone and I send him a copy of WA DL and maybe also a copy of the passport for proof of citizenship? Do I need to be in person to fill out the 4473 form? The Oregon FFL emailed back and he said it is ok for long gun sales between Oregon and Washington. I looked up the ATF page and it said the unlicensee has to be physically on the licensee premise to purchase. I am still look for reference on ATF page on reference on long gun sales on neighboring states. I am still confused.

 

[fd15k]

So I can legallly purchase from the FFL in oregon over the phone and he can ship it directly to me? So is he going to just a do NICS check over the phone and I send him a copy of WA DL and maybe also a copy of the passport for proof of citizenship? Do I need to be in person to fill out the 4473 form? The Oregon FFL emailed back and he said it is ok for long gun sales between Oregon and Washington. I looked up the ATF page and it said the unlicensee has to be physically on the licensee premise to purchase. I am still look for reference on ATF page on reference on long gun sales on neighboring states. I am still confused.

No, if you purchase over the phone, firearm can't be shipped directly to you in most cases (FFL 03 is one exception), and previous poster didn't imply that. One can purchase a firearm any way he wants (in person, Internet, phone), but to take possession they have to fill out 4473 at some FFL, and pick it up there. Federal law doesn't deal with neighboring states at all, that's why you have a hard time finding the info Instead you can purchase and take possession of a long gun at FFL in ANY state, as long as both such state and your state of residence allow it (WA => OR = okay; OR => WA = okay; CA => OR = not okay; OR => CA not okay). Here is the info you were looking for :

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

ATF Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons

 

[kbc9]

Ok, I got another question regarding buying a rifle(Enterprise FAL with bullet button installed) from a private California seller. Is there any special requirement to transfer the rifle from California to Washington? I talked to 4 different FFLs in Washington, 3 of the 4 said the seller in California can ship the gun directly to them and do the transfer here in Washington to me. 1 of the 4 FFLs said the seller needs to ship from a California FFL to the FFL here in Washington because it is from California. Normally, he accepts shipment from a private seller. I read about the DROS system in California. Is there anything need to be done by the seller in California before it can be shipped out? Can anyone explain how it should be done?

 

[fd15k]

Ok, I got another question regarding buying a rifle(Enterprise FAL with bullet button installed) from a private California seller. Is there any special requirement to transfer the rifle from California to Washington? I talked to 4 different FFLs in Washington, 3 of the 4 said the seller in California can ship the gun directly to them and do the transfer here in Washington to me. 1 of the 4 FFLs said the seller needs to ship from a California FFL to the FFL here in Washington because it is from California. Normally, he accepts shipment from a private seller. I read about the DROS system in California. Is there anything need to be done by the seller in California before it can be shipped out? Can anyone explain how it should be done?

Nothing special needs to be done, the rifle can be shipped directly to WA FFL. DROS system is involved only when a firearm is transferred to a CA resident. Also there is no long gun registration in California until next year.

 

[MikeSettles]

Why would anyone, who didn't have to, buy a Kalifornia-legal FAL??? If you are from Washington there's no need to mess with "bullet buttons: You can buy a real one!

 

[fd15k]

Why would anyone, who didn't have to, buy a Kalifornia-legal FAL??? If you are from Washington there's no need to mess with "bullet buttons: You can buy a real one!

"Bullet Button" is usually a 30-second revertible modification. Perhaps it's his friend selling, or he specifically wants an Enterprise FAL (CA manufacturer). Not our place to question

 

[hermannr]

Ok, I got another question regarding buying a rifle(Enterprise FAL with bullet button installed) from a private California seller. Is there any special requirement to transfer the rifle from California to Washington? I talked to 4 different FFLs in Washington, 3 of the 4 said the seller in California can ship the gun directly to them and do the transfer here in Washington to me. 1 of the 4 FFLs said the seller needs to ship from a California FFL to the FFL here in Washington because it is from California. Normally, he accepts shipment from a private seller. I read about the DROS system in California. Is there anything need to be done by the seller in California before it can be shipped out? Can anyone explain how it should be done?

Some FFLs will only deal with other FFLs as a personal policy. The law is your seller can ship to any FFL, if the FFL will accept the shipment. I would use one of teh FFL that will take direct shipment. one less fee.