FFL Refuses to Release Handgun

[joeroket]

Yea I saw that and edited my original post.

I know exactly why He is doing that. I do all my firearms business with him. Never had an issue. The city of Everett is trying to shut him down because they do not want pawn shops in the downtown core. He covers his butt on everything. He had a deal a while back where a guy brought in a ton of gift cards. He called on every single one to verify the validity and the amount. All was good according to the retailers. The city PD found out about them and confiscated them saying they were stolen. The tried to charge him with possession of stolen goods and fencing just to shut him down. In the end all of them were returned to him and he re-sold them as they were not actually stolen. It cost him a pretty penny to fight the city but he prevailed because he covers his butt.

 

[Dan-Dee Sales Inc]

Sound Loan and Pawn in Everett.

blackball.

A quick story about about a customer and a handgun.

we had a woman come in and purchase a handgun from us. When we did the background check, it came back "pending". No problem. The woman left and we were waiting for OSP to call us back. Awhile later another person called me asking if a woman had tried to purchase a gun from us. I told her yes, but is was pending. she told me that the woman wanted to purchase a gun to commit suicide. To say that my heart stopped is an understatement. I called OSP back and explained it to them and they said that it was up to me. Legally I could still sell it to her if the check came back clean. I called our Police Department and told them everything. About a half hour later, she came in with an Officer and I refunded her the money.
It is very simple. Legally, I could of finished the transaction in the 3 day window if I did not hear back from OSP. The check comes back later denied and she has committed suicide with my gun. Out of business for me. Of course, she could of passed the check and done the same thing. I get it. If there is enough of an issue that there is a delay, why would the dealer take the risk of releasing it? Legal or not, it is still our business to lose. I do not understand why you want to blackball his business because of a delay that you do not know the reason of. The business gets "NO" information of the delay. You, the customer will know more than he will if you call them.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I've never had a problem ordering a gun online and have saved a lot of $$ that way

 

[RWeaver]

It's easy to call someone else chicken when you're the one who's not taking the risk.

I have a feeling that at this point the FFL won't mind if you don't come back.

Again, there's little to no risk involved here. Hardly any more than the base "risk" you take when you decide to get in the business of selling firearms, and if you can't handle that much, then stop dealing.

 

[Dan-Dee Sales Inc]

Again, there's little to no risk involved here. Hardly any more than the base "risk" you take when you decide to get in the business of selling firearms, and if you can't handle that much, then stop dealing.

you must own your own business.

 

[RWeaver]

blackball.

A quick story about about a customer and a handgun.

we had a woman come in and purchase a handgun from us. When we did the background check, it came back "pending". No problem. The woman left and we were waiting for OSP to call us back. Awhile later another person called me asking if a woman had tried to purchase a gun from us. I told her yes, but is was pending. she told me that the woman wanted to purchase a gun to commit suicide. To say that my heart stopped is an understatement. I called OSP back and explained it to them and they said that it was up to me. Legally I could still sell it to her if the check came back clean. I called our Police Department and told them everything. About a half hour later, she came in with an Officer and I refunded her the money.
It is very simple. Legally, I could of finished the transaction in the 3 day window if I did not hear back from OSP. The check comes back later denied and she has committed suicide with my gun. Out of business for me. Of course, she could of passed the check and done the same thing. I get it. If there is enough of an issue that there is a delay, why would the dealer take the risk of releasing it? Legal or not, it is still our business to lose. I do not understand why you want to blackball his business because of a delay that you do not know the reason of. The business gets "NO" information of the delay. You, the customer will know more than he will if you call them.

The law was written as it was presumably because we have a right to keep and bear arms, and that right should be upheld in a timely manner; LLE has five days. Not five days to issue a denial or a clear, mind you, but five days to decide if they need more than five days. If they can't decide whether or not a hold is in order within five days, isn't it arguable that my RTKBA is being infringed upon with no reason given?

Also, yeah, yeah, butt-covering. I'll say again that that argument doesn't hold much water for me due to the fact that this guy didn't even know the laws that govern his business.

And also, as I said previously, I feel others have a right to know the way this guy does business, and thus have the opportunity to have a better experience someplace else. I sure wish I'd known before choosing this guy as my transfer dealer; shame on me for assuming a licensed firearms dealer would keep up on the laws of the land, I suppose.

Bottom line is, I could've had my gun today if I'd gone to another dealer a few minutes farther down the road, instead of being completely unsure of when I'll actually get it; maybe someone who reads this will have a better experience with their own transaction.

 

[jasonabernathy75]

I'm leaning in this direction, which is a shame because I got great service from the online retailer I ordered from. I suppose I really just need to find a good, trustworthy FFL who'll make any future online purchases smooth and simple.

Just buy from your local gun shop. Its easier and you know what and when your getting it

 

[RWeaver]

Yea I saw that and edited my original post.

I know exactly why He is doing that. I do all my firearms business with him. Never had an issue. The city of Everett is trying to shut him down because they do not want pawn shops in the downtown core. He covers his butt on everything. He had a deal a while back where a guy brought in a ton of gift cards. He called on every single one to verify the validity and the amount. All was good according to the retailers. The city PD found out about them and confiscated them saying they were stolen. The tried to charge him with possession of stolen goods and fencing just to shut him down. In the end all of them were returned to him and he re-sold them as they were not actually stolen. It cost him a pretty penny to fight the city but he prevailed because he covers his butt.

Understandable, but it would be nice if he was upfront about this. Not details, of course, but just saying right way when someone calls that "Just to let you know before we do business, for my own reasons I do not honor the 'release after five days' rule, and only release a handgun once I've heard from the police."

Of course, it's hard to do that when you're not even aware of that law to begin with.

 

[G1GRANDEUR]

I never heard of that law until now.

 

[RWeaver]

Just wanna say I appreciate everyone's feedback. I suppose I'll give an update when I get my handgun. Looking forward to some more good discussions on this site!

 

[U201494]

It's one thing to be too chicken to assert your rights as a licensed firearms dealer; it's another to do so at the detriment of your customers, who will soon (after one transaction with you) decide to go to a different dealer, one who KNOWS the law and will assert his rights and those of his customers.

Yepper. Ride this thing out. Pursue it through legal channels if it get's to that point. Then tell this a-hole to kiss off and use someone else in the future. Gun Broker on line has a pretty good listing of folks with FFLs willing to do transfers only.
I buy and sell many guns on line, seldom have a problem, and have yet to have one of your magnitude.
If this were to happen to me I would contact an attorney and pursue the ape holding my purchase.

 

[billdeserthills]

Well, I posted about this the other day in the Legal section but I wanted to do a summarized and updated version here to get some more opinions. Here's the rundown:

So, I ordered a handgun two weeks ago, had it shipped to an FFL here in Everett, WA. Went in and did my paperwork last Monday and, according to this dealer, the local PD told him they received the paperwork last Thursday. Now, according to RCW 9.41.090 (RCW 9.41.090: Dealer deliveries regulated), if the FFL doesn't hear from the LLE about a hold or a deny within five business days, the gun is to be released to the purchaser. Today is the fifth day.

I've been on the phone with this guy over and over. At first he didn't believe me about the 5 Day Waiting Period law, but even after I got him to confirm it by calling the PD, finally today I went in to the shop he stated plainly that, even though he acknowledges that it's been five days, he will NOT release the gun to me until he gets a clear from the PD.

It astounds me that he wasn't even aware of the law, and that I had to educate HIM about it. Shouldn't a licensed firearms dealer be well-versed in these things? The RCW is easily accessible and pretty simple to understand.

I've since talked to the local PD and the Seattle BATF Field Office. The former told me to call in the morning, as the person who handles these things is out for the day. According to the guy I talked to at the BATF, most dealers will release after five days but it's their prerogative to refuse, and there's nothing I can do except get my CPL (applied about three weeks ago, waiting to get it in the mail) and refuse to do business with this dealer in the future. The question here is what, then, keeps the dealer from holding my gun indefinitely? I should've posed this question to the BATF guy but... well, I didn't.

I had a similar difficulty,
Worst case, you can always have a different FFL transfer the gun from this problem dealer. He will have no choice but to transfer your gun to whichever other FFL you wish, end of problem. However that will take time, then you'll likely get delayed? once more as well. Might be faster to let this dealer figure it out himself & get your gun to you later.

 

[chariot13]

So the dealer's misunderstanding/non-understanding of the laws that govern his business is not an issue.
The fact that the dealer wants to play safe at the irritation of a customer is not an issue.
The size of the transaction determining the quality and speed of service is not an issue.
Who is this guy? I wouldn't want to deal with him.

No none of that is an issue. But the fact that dealers at the behest of the government can use a background check as a stall factor that ultimately infringes upon a perticular ammendment is an issue. Stalling a right is holding it back, holding it back is infringement.

 

[TonsOfOregonBrass]

Here is another point of view from the dealers stand point... When there is a delay, there is an issue in your past (different for washington as there is a wait period) But If i hand you a gun after the 3 day wait even though it is still pending and you commit a crime with it I can be sued civilly. It makes no difference to me if it is a gun i am making $15 on a transfer or $500 of an amazing deal i came across. That $500 or even more is not worth losing my business over. That is how i pay for food in my child, wifes, and my bellies. I respect your right to bear arms, I encourage it, but your rights are not worth losing my business over. We operate in an environment of constant attack and criticism. It only takes one time giving a gun to the wrong person and you can lose everything. even if you dont lose in civil court, your lawyer fees can put you out of business just as fast.

Best question to ask, would be would you risk everything you own for someone who just walked in off the street, you just met, and (by the delay) obviously has some form of record. It might be traffic tickets, but their is something and we are not allowed to know what.

and to add to what dan dee said,

Following the law is not always the right choice.

I know i am not always worried about the legal aspect, I am worried about the lawyers on the civil side. Civil suits have gotten way out of control in my opinion.

 

[RWeaver]

Here is another point of view from the dealers stand point... When there is a delay, there is an issue in your past (different for washington as there is a wait period) But If i hand you a gun after the 3 day wait even though it is still pending and you commit a crime with it I can be sued civilly. It makes no difference to me if it is a gun i am making $15 on a transfer or $500 of an amazing deal i came across. That $500 or even more is not worth losing my business over. That is how i pay for food in my child, wifes, and my bellies. I respect your right to bear arms, I encourage it, but your rights are not worth losing my business over. We operate in an environment of constant attack and criticism. It only takes one time giving a gun to the wrong person and you can lose everything. even if you dont lose in civil court, your lawyer fees can put you out of business just as fast.

Best question to ask, would be would you risk everything you own for someone who just walked in off the street, you just met, and (by the delay) obviously has some form of record. It might be traffic tickets, but their is something and we are not allowed to know what.

and to add to what dan dee said,

Following the law is not always the right choice.

I know i am not always worried about the legal aspect, I am worried about the lawyers on the civil side. Civil suits have gotten way out of control in my opinion.

Again, there's been no official delay. The only delay is on the dealer's part. He has received no, zero, zilch, nada, word from the PD telling him to delay, hold, deny, what have you, and it is because of this that he would be completely within his rights and within the law to release the handgun, once five business days have passed, as per RCW 9.41.090 and, as such, risk to the dealer is minimal at most.

Not that the dealer would be expected to know this, but I have an absolutely squeeky clean record, no reason why I would be denied. I only say this because it leads me to believe that the Everett PD simply has not processed the paperwork enough to even decide whether they need more than the five days to get to it. Maybe they're understaffed or overloaded or whatever, but I imagine that's the whole point of that section of the RCW; so that people aren't kept waiting by inefficient government bureaucracy. A truly commendable notion on the part of the legislators. Now, if only this dealer would make use of it.

And on the notion of "blackballing;" this isn't blackballing. The situation is as simple as this;

Dealer A's policy is to release the gun after five business days of no word from LLE, as per the RCW

and

Dealer B's policy is to hold the gun until he gets a clear from LLE

Both choices are the prerogative of the dealer, but which one is more likely get you your item in a timely manner and, thus, which one are you more likely to be happy doing business with?

Dealer A is the clear choice for me. The fact that I posted it here and that other people are choosing to avoid this dealer based on that information is simply a product of A) this dealer's policy and B) my right to share my experience with fellow consumers so that they can make more informed decisions.

 

[joeroket]

Keep in mind the RCW authorizes him to release the firearm after 5 days. It does not require it.

I can assure you that he is a up and up honest guy. I can also attest that he is a pleasure to do business with if you allow yourself to become a regular customer of his. He has tons of people that do business with him in firearms. He has steady customers that both buy and sell through him. If he were not a respected guy to do business with I can promise that his end of the firearm business would not have taken off like it did in such a short time. He has done transfers for years but only within the last 6-8 months gotten more heavily involved in transfers, selling, consignment, and buying firearms.

It is your choice as to whether or not you give him repeat business and everyone on here should respect that just as some respect that it is his business and license on the line which allows him to make the decision he made in your case.

The only thing I don't by into is your claim of your constitutional right being violated. The constitution limits the powers of the government, not individual citizens and their ability to do business.

 

[Misterbill]

Well, I posted about this the other day in the Legal section but I wanted to do a summarized and updated version here to get some more opinions. Here's the rundown:

So, I ordered a handgun two weeks ago, had it shipped to an FFL here in Everett, WA. Went in and did my paperwork last Monday and, according to this dealer, the local PD told him they received the paperwork last Thursday. Now, according to RCW 9.41.090 (RCW 9.41.090: Dealer deliveries regulated), if the FFL doesn't hear from the LLE about a hold or a deny within five business days, the gun is to be released to the purchaser. Today is the fifth day.

I've been on the phone with this guy over and over. At first he didn't believe me about the 5 Day Waiting Period law, but even after I got him to confirm it by calling the PD, finally today I went in to the shop he stated plainly that, even though he acknowledges that it's been five days, he will NOT release the gun to me until he gets a clear from the PD.

It astounds me that he wasn't even aware of the law, and that I had to educate HIM about it. Shouldn't a licensed firearms dealer be well-versed in these things? The RCW is easily accessible and pretty simple to understand.

I've since talked to the local PD and the Seattle BATF Field Office. The former told me to call in the morning, as the person who handles these things is out for the day. According to the guy I talked to at the BATF, most dealers will release after five days but it's their prerogative to refuse, and there's nothing I can do except get my CPL (applied about three weeks ago, waiting to get it in the mail) and refuse to do business with this dealer in the future. The question here is what, then, keeps the dealer from holding my gun indefinitely? I should've posed this question to the BATF guy but... well, I didn't.

Stop payment on the check and go buy from someone else. DUH.

 

[Misterbill]

Here is another point of view from the dealers stand point... When there is a delay, there is an issue in your past (different for washington as there is a wait period) But If i hand you a gun after the 3 day wait even though it is still pending and you commit a crime with it I can be sued civilly. It makes no difference to me if it is a gun i am making $15 on a transfer or $500 of an amazing deal i came across. That $500 or even more is not worth losing my business over. That is how i pay for food in my child, wifes, and my bellies. I respect your right to bear arms, I encourage it, but your rights are not worth losing my business over. We operate in an environment of constant attack and criticism. It only takes one time giving a gun to the wrong person and you can lose everything. even if you dont lose in civil court, your lawyer fees can put you out of business just as fast.

Best question to ask, would be would you risk everything you own for someone who just walked in off the street, you just met, and (by the delay) obviously has some form of record. It might be traffic tickets, but their is something and we are not allowed to know what.

and to add to what dan dee said,

Following the law is not always the right choice.

I know i am not always worried about the legal aspect, I am worried about the lawyers on the civil side. Civil suits have gotten way out of control in my opinion.

Specific case law please, otherwise your argument is as ridiculous legally as it is logically. People are always claiming liability when there is none. The dealer in this case is scum. OP, please post the name and address of this dealer so we know who to avoid or who can post to this thread and call you a liar.

 

[chase]

That's why Oregon is nice. See a gun you want? Bring it home that day. Also you would never make it, waiting for a class 3 item.

 

[RWeaver]

Specific case law please, otherwise your argument is as ridiculous legally as it is logically. People are always claiming liability when there is none. The dealer in this case is scum. OP, please post the name and address of this dealer so we know who to avoid or who can post to this thread and call you a liar.

I wouldn't use that word myself, but I have already posted the name of the dealer earlier in this thread simply in the name of helping fellow consumers in the area make an informed decision about where to have their handguns transfered. Maybe someone will be able to avoid this same annoyance in the future. I may get some flak from him over this but at this point, not having any real idea of when I may get my handgun, I'm not too concerned about that; if he truly believes this policy is necessary, then he should have no problem with people being aware of it and making their decisions accordingly. Indeed, if he'd made me aware of it (reckon I should've asked but it just didn't occur to me) up front when I called about a transfer, I would've simply said thanks but no, thanks, and found another dealer.

By the way, I'm all for this guy telling his side of the story, though I'm not sure what he could add that'd be new; he has a policy that is causing me to wait longer than legally necessary to take possession of a firearm that I have paid for in full. Simple as that, really.