FFL Refuses to Release Handgun

[RWeaver]

Well, I posted about this the other day in the Legal section but I wanted to do a summarized and updated version here to get some more opinions. Here's the rundown:

So, I ordered a handgun two weeks ago, had it shipped to an FFL here in Everett, WA. Went in and did my paperwork last Monday and, according to this dealer, the local PD told him they received the paperwork last Thursday. Now, according to RCW 9.41.090 (RCW 9.41.090: Dealer deliveries regulated), if the FFL doesn't hear from the LLE about a hold or a deny within five business days, the gun is to be released to the purchaser. Today is the fifth day.

I've been on the phone with this guy over and over. At first he didn't believe me about the 5 Day Waiting Period law, but even after I got him to confirm it by calling the PD, finally today I went in to the shop he stated plainly that, even though he acknowledges that it's been five days, he will NOT release the gun to me until he gets a clear from the PD.

It astounds me that he wasn't even aware of the law, and that I had to educate HIM about it. Shouldn't a licensed firearms dealer be well-versed in these things? The RCW is easily accessible and pretty simple to understand.

I've since talked to the local PD and the Seattle BATF Field Office. The former told me to call in the morning, as the person who handles these things is out for the day. According to the guy I talked to at the BATF, most dealers will release after five days but it's their prerogative to refuse, and there's nothing I can do except get my CPL (applied about three weeks ago, waiting to get it in the mail) and refuse to do business with this dealer in the future. The question here is what, then, keeps the dealer from holding my gun indefinitely? I should've posed this question to the BATF guy but... well, I didn't.

Edit: Was able to pick up my SIG PRO 2022 today. Guy called and said he'd received a clear from the PD. I'd just like to reiterate that this guy was never shady or dishonest with me. He was courteous throughout; the only problems I had with him were his lack of knowledge regarding the relevant laws and his policy regarding the five day release. If you have a CPL, you'll most likely have a speedy-as-possible transaction with this guy.

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[MrNiceGuy]

The hassle of ordering a gun online is rarely worth the few dollars you save.

 

[Hawaiian]

The dealer is just covering his butt. He has the right to do so, just like you have the right to take your business elsewhere next time.

 

[RWeaver]

The hassle of ordering a gun online is rarely worth the few dollars you save.

Thing is, none of this hassle stems from the fact that I bought it online. That part of it was actually great; got a good price, great service and the gun shipped out on Friday, arrived the following Monday.

The hassle all stems from this dealer's (silly, imo) butt-covering, as Hawaiian accurately put it.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Thing is, none of this hassle stems from the fact that I bought it online. That part of it was actually great; got a good price, great service and the gun shipped out on Friday, arrived the following Monday.

The hassle all stems from this dealer's (silly, imo) butt-covering, as Hawaiian accurately put it.

The FFL will be required every time you order a gun online. You cant really separate it from the ordering process. It's integral.
It's one of three places the process can break down.
Either the retailer, the shipper, or the FFL can ruin everything.

If you hadn't bought the gun online, chances are you would have had it weeks ago.

As it stands you have an FFL that sees all risk and no reward.
He may make $10 off of the transaction but that's not enough to overcome the possible liability.

 

[RWeaver]

The FFL will be required every time you order a gun online. You cant really separate it from the ordering process. It's integral.
It's one of three places the process can break down.
Either the retailer, the shipper, or the FFL can ruin everything.

If you hadn't bought the gun online, chances are you would have had it weeks ago.

As it stands you have an FFL that sees all risk and no reward.
He may make $10 off of the transaction but that's not enough to overcome the possible liability.

Good points, I suppose. Although, the retailer and shipper in this case only account for three days (Friday, Saturday, Sunday). The gun arrived at the dealer and I did my paperwork on Monday. So, if I'd gone to this same FFL and bought a gun directly from him on the same day (Thursday) that I placed my order, I very well might still be waiting, as I'm not at all certain that I'll be getting my gun from him in the next three days.

 

[gunnails]

Well, I posted about this the other day in the Legal section but I wanted to do a summarized and updated version here to get some more opinions. Here's the rundown:

So, I ordered a handgun two weeks ago, had it shipped to an FFL here in Everett, WA. Went in and did my paperwork last Monday and, according to this dealer, the local PD told him they received the paperwork last Thursday. Now, according to RCW 9.41.090 (RCW 9.41.090: Dealer deliveries regulated), if the FFL doesn't hear from the LLE about a hold or a deny within five business days, the gun is to be released to the purchaser. Today is the fifth day.

I've been on the phone with this guy over and over. At first he didn't believe me about the 5 Day Waiting Period law, but even after I got him to confirm it by calling the PD, finally today I went in to the shop he stated plainly that, even though he acknowledges that it's been five days, he will NOT release the gun to me until he gets a clear from the PD.

It astounds me that he wasn't even aware of the law, and that I had to educate HIM about it. Shouldn't a licensed firearms dealer be well-versed in these things? The RCW is easily accessible and pretty simple to understand.

I've since talked to the local PD and the Seattle BATF Field Office. The former told me to call in the morning, as the person who handles these things is out for the day. According to the guy I talked to at the BATF, most dealers will release after five days but it's their prerogative to refuse, and there's nothing I can do except get my CPL (applied about three weeks ago, waiting to get it in the mail) and refuse to do business with this dealer in the future. The question here is what, then, keeps the dealer from holding my gun indefinitely? I should've posed this question to the BATF guy but... well, I didn't.

============================================================

I am sure this will all work out in just a few more days, and I feel for you.

I don't understand what a CPL has to do with any thing. Are they saying if you have a CPL then no need for the back ground check?

 

[RWeaver]

============================================================

I am sure this will all work out in just a few more days, and I feel for you.

I don't understand what a CPL has to do with any thing. Are they saying if you have a CPL then no need for the back ground check?

In Washington, if you have a CPL then the FFL does the NICS check in store and hands you the gun afterwards. No CPL = sending paperwork out to LLE.

 

[gunnoob75]

Don't pay for a gun until it can be in your possession. =o

 

[RWeaver]

Don't pay for a gun until it can be in your possession. =o

I'm leaning in this direction, which is a shame because I got great service from the online retailer I ordered from. I suppose I really just need to find a good, trustworthy FFL who'll make any future online purchases smooth and simple.

 

[RWeaver]

The dealer is just covering his butt. He has the right to do so, just like you have the right to take your business elsewhere next time.

And here's the thing about it; I understand butt-covering, but in this case I really think it's unnecessary. After all, who's to say that, just because someone comes back with a clear record, they're not going to go commit a crime with their newly acquired weapon right after leaving the store, or ten years down the road, or at SOME point? Just follow the letter of the law as closely as possible, and if that's not good enough for you, then you probably should just stop selling firearms altogether, in my opinion, because you obviously haven't the stomach for it.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

I'm leaning in this direction, which is a shame because I got great service from the online retailer I ordered from. I suppose I really just need to find a good, trustworthy FFL who'll make any future online purchases smooth and simple.

Even better, find a good local gun store and start building a rapport with the staff.

I've built up a pretty good relationship with a local store. They are eager to help with any problems I may have down the road and I frequently get discounts without even asking. Just a few weeks ago they noticed the rear sight on my glock was a little fubar, so they found a set of factory take offs and installed them on my gun free of charge.

Online stores may save you a buck or two, but you'll never get the service and support of a good local shop.

 

[CJ1089]

The hassle of ordering a gun online is rarely worth the few dollars you save.

Couldn't disagree more, I have ordered and received w/o issue a dozen firearms. Shipped a good dozen (used) to FFL's in other states and never had a glitch. This is a dealer issue. If I were you I would post the dealer's name/business, I wouldn't keep it a secret. Maybe after you get you firearm as he might hold it against you because he sounds like a weasel to me.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

And here's the thing about it; I understand butt-covering, but in this case I really think it's unnecessary. After all, who's to say that, just because someone comes back with a clear record, they're not going to go commit a crime with their newly acquired weapon right after leaving the store, or ten years down the road, or at SOME point? Just follow the letter of the law as closely as possible, and if that's not good enough for you, then you probably should just stop selling firearms altogether, in my opinion, because you obviously haven't the stomach for it.

It's easy to judge from the outside.

You're just a little impatient.
He's contemplating the risk of losing his livelihood over a small time customer who didnt bring his business enough profit to buy a lunch at taco bell.

From a business standpoint, it's a no-brainer.

 

[G1GRANDEUR]

I agree with MrNiceGuy. I understand waiting sucks, but gun shop is just playing safe.

 

[CJ1089]

So the dealer's misunderstanding/non-understanding of the laws that govern his business is not an issue.
The fact that the dealer wants to play safe at the irritation of a customer is not an issue.
The size of the transaction determining the quality and speed of service is not an issue.
Who is this guy? I wouldn't want to deal with him.

 

[RWeaver]

It's easy to judge from the outside.

You're just a little impatient.
He's contemplating the risk of losing his livelihood over a small time customer who didnt bring his business enough profit to buy a lunch at taco bell.

From a business standpoint, it's a no-brainer.

Except that the risk to his livelihood is little to none, as he would be completely within his rights and breaking no law, AND the fact that he's not just losing MY business; I've posted this story along with the dealer's name at another forum I visit and they've removed him from their FFL database, along with a lot of posts saying they'll avoid this guy.

It's one thing to be too chicken to assert your rights as a licensed firearms dealer; it's another to do so at the detriment of your customers, who will soon (after one transaction with you) decide to go to a different dealer, one who KNOWS the law and will assert his rights and those of his customers.

On that note, the dealer is Sound Loan and Pawn in Everett. Be aware what you're in for if you buy a handgun from this guy without a CPL.

And yeah, if he gets wind of this, he may give me some trouble. But all the points I've raised are valid and, while I did express a little bit of what I thought of his stance when I went in there today, I wasn't going to go into a man's business and tell him how to run it. Having said that, I do believe that my fellow consumers and gun enthusiasts have a right to know what to expect if they choose to purchase from this guy; information that I now wish I had before having my order sent to him.

 

[joeroket]

Edit: nevermind.

 

[RWeaver]

What FFL is this? I would like to know so he does not get my business as well. I typically wait until I find the pistol I want at the price I want to pay and online is the only place I can do that.

Sound Loan and Pawn in Everett.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Except that the risk to his livelihood is little to none, as he would be completely within his rights and breaking no law, AND the fact that he's not just losing MY business; I've posted this story along with the dealer's name at another forum I visit and they've removed him from their FFL database, along with a lot of posts saying they'll avoid this guy.

It's one thing to be too chicken to assert your rights as a licensed firearms dealer; it's another to do so at the detriment of your customers, who will soon (after one transaction with you) decide to go to a different dealer, one who KNOWS the law and will assert his rights and those of his customers.

On that note, the dealer is Sound Loan and Pawn in Everett. Be aware what you're in for if you buy a handgun from this guy without a CPL.

And yeah, if he gets wind of this, he may give me some trouble. But all the points I've raised are valid and, while I did express a little bit of what I thought of his stance when I went in there today, I wasn't going to go into a man's business and tell him how to run it. Having said that, I do believe that my fellow consumers and gun enthusiasts have a right to know what to expect if they choose to purchase from this guy; information that I now wish I had before having my order sent to him.

It's easy to call someone else chicken when you're the one who's not taking the risk.

I have a feeling that at this point the FFL won't mind if you don't come back.