FBI Analysis on PA Police Shootout

[titsonritz]

Over and out

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[Redcap]

WARNING:
THE BELOW LINK CONTAINS VERY GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED WITH DISCRETION.

As most know, shot placement, not caliber or weapon, is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively. Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in area that produce great pain and continue to fight a long time, even without the aid of drugs or alcohol.

<broken link removed>

Yup. I know real well about that one.

 

[CleverName]

Why the lack of penetration of the .40s? The write up never addresses this. And the slugs in the xray look partially expanded except the throat shot.

 

[wichaka]

The answer to your penetration question is in the article;

"It is impossible for a .40 S&W 180gr JHP ammunition to expand with only 1in. or less penetration in a human body."

A bullet takes time to expand, and there's not enough time in the distance of 1in. to do that.

 

[Riot]

WARNING: THE BELOW LINK CONTAINS VERY GRAPHIC AUTOPSY PHOTOS AND SHOULD BE VIEWED WITH DISCRETION.

As most know, shot placement, not caliber or weapon, is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively. Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in area that produce great pain and continue to fight a long time, even without the aid of drugs or alcohol.

<broken link removed>

Actually, it's both. A .22 in the heart or head might not do anything but piss off your assailant while a .45 could sever a hand and make it useless. The subject had the mindset of winning and killing cops- or to die trying. The pain of the shots were ignored by his will to continue.

Can anyone sit here and state that someone hit in the leg with a .50AE has a better chance of surviving than someone hit in the chest with a .9mm? No. What I took from the report is that all bullets have their limitations. The .40 S&W was thought to be a perfect cure all for capacity, take down and penetration...but it looks like if you throw in some light cover (i.e. vehicle glass) then 180gr Speer Gold Dot, .40 cals turn into little more than big pellets (hence the 1in penetration in the neck but a through-and-through on his right arm and arm bone). This investigation made me more interested in bullets that go faster, but are decent sized (i.e. .357 sig) or bigger bullets that go faster (i.e. 10mm) and the need for FMJ to go through light cover.

Know the limitations of your bullets. That is what I took from the investigation. Any FBI analysis of the .40 S&W is probably just going to be a justification for keeping it as current duty use instead of going back to the 10mm.

 

[Doubletap]

I too would like an explanation as to the lack of penetration..which..from reading the attached report several times..is not addressed.. True..the lack of penetration explains lack of expansion.. It does state..near the bottom of the report..which sadly..is covered up..that there was a second incident..where vehicle glass was a factor.. But..concerning this incident..it states the only barrier was a down jacket and a t-shirt.. So..why only 1" of penetration? That's absolutely pathetic.. Might as well have been armed with slingshots...

 

[kenno]

This is not the ONLY Incident where 40sw has failed! 1" penetration in the throat, at what distance 200 yards?
I'll stick with my 9mm FMJ

"Can anyone sit here and state that someone hit in the leg with a .50AE has a better chance of surviving than someone hit in the chest with a .9mm? "

That is the wrong question
The right question should be:
"Can anyone sit here and state that someone hit in the leg with a .50AE has a better chance of killing his oponent than someone hit in the chest with a 9mm."
The answer, of course, is yes!

 

[DP641]

Carry as much gun as you can, caliber, numbers of guns, etc.
The sickest feeling you may feel is when your gun runs dry in an incident.
Shot placement
Don't expect the assailant to die after being hit (you don't want to either).
Don't rely on handgun bullet expansion at limited velocities.
SHOT PLACEMENT

 

[CleverName]

The answer to your penetration question is in the article;

"It is impossible for a .40 S&W 180gr JHP ammunition to expand with only 1in. or less penetration in a human body."

A bullet takes time to expand, and there's not enough time in the distance of 1in. to do that.

My question is not answered in the text. WHY only 1" of penetration?

 

[gunnails]

My question is not answered in the text. WHY only 1" of penetration?

=============================================

Windshield.

 

[KalamaMark]

My Summary after review of the facts and photos. Gold Dot makes you stronger. TAP doesn't.

 

[locobob]

A couple of thoughts:
The data from just one shooting incident shouldn't be over-emphasized, bullets (and people) often do weird things. It takes large volumes of data to spot real trends.
Shot placement sounds great in theory but does in really mean much when you are trying to hit a moving target while under fire? I think most folks just aim center of mass and hope for hits of any kind in a close quarter gun fight.

 

[nforest]

My thoughts: Don't get tattoos that foresee the future.

 

[Riot]

My Summary after review of the facts and photos. Gold Dot makes you stronger. TAP doesn't.

lol

When the report first came out I made up my mind to switch all my ammo to Hornady TAP.

 

[Bigfoot]

A ghetto ballistic vest. And all this time I thought the bangers wore down jackets in the summer because of style or drug induced problems with core temperature. This could be a marketing idea for jacket makers.

I practice visualising where the spine is when I'm in public because that's what my target would be and I know that won't have time to figure in body position and angle when the stress is on.

 

[Riot]

Again this thread is not intended to be about calibers or round design but rather the fact that human targets are very tough and dedicated humans are even tougher. My AK is loaded with 123 gr 7.62x39 TAP V-Max, my Glock 19 is loaded with 124 gr. +p LE Gold Dots and I have full confidence in both my choices. At least as much confidence that is possible; there are no guarantees with any man portable weapon.

Now THAT I can agree with.

Look guys, Congresswoman Grifford was shot in the head with a 9mm and lived. Yeah, it was miraculous that she lived, but ever wonder how many people Lee Loughner would have killed instead of injured if he was shooting a Glock 22 (40 S&W) with an extended mag versus a Glock 17 (9mm)? What about a .45? Just food for thought.

 

[nitestocker]

Look guys, Congresswoman Grifford was shot in the head with a 9mm and lived. Yeah, it was miraculous that she lived, but ever wonder how many people Lee Loughner would have killed instead of injured if he was shooting a Glock 22 (40 S&W) with an extended mag versus a Glock 17 (9mm)? What about a .45? Just food for thought ( no bubblegum ) i dident say bubblegum

 

[wichaka]

I worked major crimes for five years and attended a lot autopsies, and still get called when a shooting victim comes thru with a 45 cal wound...as that's what I carry.
I want to still see first hand the performance of the bullet in conjunction with what it did or did not contact.

Anyway, after many a shooting victim autopsy...I came away with a few indisputable truths;

1) One can shoot the same bullet out of the same gun at the same angle, hitting the same media (clothing,skin,bone etc.) and get slightly varied results every time. There are too many variables in the human body that affect bullet performance.

2) JHP's do better than FMJ

3) Pistol bullets are really a poor choice to stop an immediate threat

 

[drew]

Look guys, Congresswoman Grifford was shot in the head with a 9mm and lived. Yeah, it was miraculous that she lived, but ever wonder how many people Lee Loughner would have killed instead of injured if he was shooting a Glock 22 (40 S&W) with an extended mag versus a Glock 17 (9mm)? What about a .45? Just food for thought ( no bubblegum ) i dident say bubblegum

Maybe he would have missed her entirely. He could have missed entirely or been less accurate with shots using a different caliber/firearm. It's nothing but speculation on our part.

 

[CleverName]

Maybe he would have missed her entirely. He could have missed entirely or been less accurate with shots using a different caliber/firearm. It's nothing but speculation on our part.

he was also shooting WWB fmj.