JavaScript is disabled
Our website requires JavaScript to function properly. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding.
Maybe he would have missed her entirely. He could have missed entirely or been less accurate with shots using a different caliber/firearm. It's nothing but speculation on our part.

Very True! We could sit and do the "what if he/she..." and still come up with nothing but speculation...so no argument here. My point is just as wichaka states that many variables can give you different results. However, these are my takes on carrying a gun...

1) Every bullet you carry is like having another option to correct a mistake. If your gun doesn't carry more than ten rounds (or you live in California), I suggest carrying multiple magazines/clips/speed loaders for it.
2) You should carry the biggest, fastest caliber you can comfortably carry, afford and accurately shoot.
3) Carrying a gun openly is telling the bad guy who the biggest threat is, thus putting the element of surprise in their favor- not your's.
4) Don't just carry a gun with you; carry a phone (to tell the police you're not the bad guy), a flashlight and a knife. Stock your car and house with first aid kits and fire extinguishers. Come up with plans and conduct "what if" scenarios for different incidents so that both you and your family member(s) can survive whatever encounters come your way. Carrying a firearm comes with a mindset of refusing to be a "sheep" among the herd. You're a "sheepdog" now whether you like it or not. Don't take unnecessary risks or get involved in situations where violence may occur (i.e. drinking at the popular gang bar) and conduct yourself in a manner that avoids fights instead of looking for them.
5) Be in condition ORANGE (elevated) at all times. You should know when a threat is coming because you should have already noticed danger areas and keyed on possible threats before the situation escalated to the point of violence. The only exception to this is when you are home, asleep.

That's all I can think of fo now without drifting too far off topic. Stay safe.
 
Lots of people are emphasizing shot placement. There was a shooting within the last year or so in the Roseburg area where a deputy sheriff shot a guy right in the chest. I have heard that outside of a head shot better placement would not have been had. Yet, the guy goes down and has enough time to position a long gun (as memory serves) and finishes himself off. I'm not sure what the moral is of my little story other than to lead credence to what wichaka said about all the variables that can affect the terminal ballistics of a bullet.
 
There are several things that I take away from this. The most important being mindset. One 18 year old kid, with no formal training, and only a will to cause hate and discontent was involved in a moving gunfight for three and a half minutes. Wounding all three officers that were involved. Even after a shattered arm, shattered pelvis, collapsed lung, and pierced aeorta, and he still fought on. Then there is the mindset of the first officer to arrive on scene, shot in the left forearm and unable to return fire. (sheep among sheepdogs ?) Kudos to the two other officers who stayed in the fight till the end.
 
There are several things that I take away from this. The most important being mindset. One 18 year old kid, with no formal training, and only a will to cause hate and discontent was involved in a moving gunfight for three and a half minutes. Wounding all three officers that were involved. Even after a shattered arm, shattered pelvis, collapsed lung, and pierced aeorta, and he still fought on. Then there is the mindset of the first officer to arrive on scene, shot in the left forearm and unable to return fire. (sheep among sheepdogs ?) Kudos to the two other officers who stayed in the fight till the end.

'Sheep among sheepdogs'? Maybe... maybe not.

I've had injuries that put me on the floor, and ones that didn't. Getting my tongue pierced damn near made me pass out; the first time I put in contacts did. I've also been impaled w/ a 3/8" steel bar about an inch deep, and didn't get woozy. You'd think that'd be a bigger shock to the system than putting contact lenses in, wouldn't ya'?

I've also had pain that made me just feel angry, as opposed to weak. I'm the same guy; just the body had different reactions at different times. So I ain't gonna' take a dig at him based on one incident. For all we know, he might have reacted very differently if the bullet hit him elsewhere, or at a different time.

*edit* Oh, and regarding caliber, I'm hoping that 13 + 1 rounds of .45ACP will do the job. My buddy feels that 9mm is an advantage, because it offers less recoil and more ammo capacity. I like the idea of having just a little more stopping power per shot. Which one is better? I guess it depends on whether you run into a situation where you wish you'd have dropped the guy w/ the first shot, or had just one more than thirteen in the mag.

-Bill
 
Last Edited:
One reason I posted this analysis is all the comments I read about people assuming that an assailant will stop and run after being shot (it just doesn't work that way people) and they never “feel out-gunned” while packing a snub nose revolver. If you must carry such a weapon carry two of them for the NY reload capability or better yet confine them to the role they play best, a BUG.
Actually, statistically you are incorrect. The vast majority of assailants that are confronted with a gun flee without being shot. Out of the ones that do get shot the vast majority of those go down quickly or cease to be a threat. It is only a very tiny minority of assailants that ever fight back instead of fleeing after being confronted with a firearm or being shot.

Why, oh why, do sane and reasonable people allow themselves to be deluded with statistical insignificances to the point of ignoring statistical realities?
 
Hello Bill. Thank you for responding to my post. This is why I love this site, the chance to debate in a civilized manner. When I say sheep among sheep dogs, there is an expectation that when someone puts on the uniform, the badge of office, the vest, and all of the cool toys, they have an obligation to serve and protect. Especially their brother and sister officers in a life and death situation. To me, it seems incredible that a law enforcement officer would sit there and not due nothing.

However as I think about what ifs, if this officer was shot in the brachial (spelling?) artery he or she may have been doing self aid. But a combat mindset would propel me to fix my boo boos and get back in the fight. Take care Bill, Chris.
 
Statistics are of little comfort to the minority. I'll stick with the capability to make lots of holes on several targets and continue training for the hard case(s).
I will live my life without fearing worst case scenarios. I have found that when people start doing that they slowly start losing touch with what is really a threat and spend too much of their time in fear.
 
Hmm, I have learned two things possibly now, either a puffy down jacket is a secret bullet proof jacket or my thoughts of my 10.5 inch noveske is the best choice for open carry pistol. That is going to make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside when Im out next time in the woods with my down jacket and AR pistol close by.
 
I will live my life without fearing worst case scenarios. I have found that when people start doing that they slowly start losing touch with what is really a threat and spend too much of their time in fear.

I think you misunderstand. There is nothing wrong with preparing for worst case scenarios. Do we fear that the bad guys are all wearing body armor? No. But if we train for the possibility, we will be better prepared. Marksmanship is a very small part of preparing yourself for a deadly encounter. You need physical fitness and proper mindset as well. I, personally, don't care if someone is seriously prepping for a zombie apocalypse...shooting every Target in the head. Whatever the motivation is to keep the gun fighting skill is, it is not a reason to dismiss their tactics. Will practicing headshots improve accuracy? Will failure drills keep your wits about you? I carry guns that have a low probability of malfunctioning, does that mean that I shouldn't practice malfunction drills? Of course not...so why say anyone is fearful or paranoid with their intentions? Just because it is not your style does not mean it is wrong.
 
Hello Bill. Thank you for responding to my post. This is why I love this site, the chance to debate in a civilized manner. When I say sheep among sheep dogs, there is an expectation that when someone puts on the uniform, the badge of office, the vest, and all of the cool toys, they have an obligation to serve and protect. Especially their brother and sister officers in a life and death situation. To me, it seems incredible that a law enforcement officer would sit there and not due nothing.

However as I think about what ifs, if this officer was shot in the brachial (spelling?) artery he or she may have been doing self aid. But a combat mindset would propel me to fix my boo boos and get back in the fight. Take care Bill, Chris.

Agreed; when you put on that badge, you oughta' bring the "A-game". Jus' sayin'... that on that day, it may have been the guy's body going into shock.

Actually, I feel sorry for the officer we're talking about. I can't imagine how bad I'd feel if I were sitting there, with a functional, loaded weapon, and somehow unable to return fire while my buddies were getting shot up. I imagine that would give me nightmares for years.

-Bill
 
Oh, and @ PLayboyPenguin: regarding 'worst case scenarios', my dad keeps on me about how simply having a pistol is a powerful deterrent (true dat), and how a .32 is a lethal round (true again).

Will I ever need the extra shot, or the extra stopping power that my G21 has over a small caliber revolver or pistol w/ a single-stack mag (like pop's Colt 1903)? I sincerely doubt it. But, if I ever were to find I really needed it, and didn't have it... well, I'd probably never get another chance to need it again, would I?

-Bill
 
after thirty plus years working in an operating room and seeing over fifty gunshot wounds and helping did out bullets I can say for a fact if you are defending your home or if you are a LEO take a 12 gauge shotgun with you, it will save your life quickly
 
I've seen Jack Rabbits and Racoons take a .40 (or a few) and keep going very well like nothing even happened. I have also seen Coyotes take a .223 hollow point at close range and run off. I actually shot a coyote at about 20 yards with my .223 and knocked it to the ground. It was on the run and I think I hit it in the guts, not the vitals. There was fresh snow on the ground and I was able to track it for about three miles before giving up.

These are both marginal rounds in regards to stopping power.
 
1) One can shoot the same bullet out of the same gun at the same angle, hitting the same media (clothing,skin,bone etc.) and get slightly varied results every time. There are too many variables in the human body that affect bullet performance.

I think that's what a lot of people don't get. I've shot a lot of coyotes with my .223 all using the same bullet (Nosler BT) and all under 100 yards. The results differ a lot from one to the next. Some drop like a rock never to get back up and others seem to be just slowed down for a few seconds. Shoulder shots and gut shots required follow up shots 100% of the time. It's not like hitting them with a large hunting caliber.

There is a lot more to it than most know. Google "Temporary Cavity" and read some of the information about that concept.

<broken link removed>

That's a good write up in the link.
 
Now THAT I can agree with.

Look guys, Congresswoman Grifford was shot in the head with a 9mm and lived. Yeah, it was miraculous that she lived, but ever wonder how many people Lee Loughner would have killed instead of injured if he was shooting a Glock 22 (40 S&W) with an extended mag versus a Glock 17 (9mm)? What about a .45? Just food for thought.

he was also shooting WWB fmj.

One fact that gets lost on the internet about her shooting. If he'd had modern JHP's instead of a FMJ's, I have no doubt that the Congresswoman would have died from those injuries.

Lucky for her, he was an idiot that didn't know better. Then again, the other innocent people he did kill are just as dead as if they would be if he'd used modern JHP's. Just goes to prove that shootings are wildly unpredictable, and even FMJ's can be deadly when put in the right places. I personally won't carry them though.
 
As I previously said, shot placement trumps caliber or bullet type every time. And speaking of what "I've shot" ... several elk, most notable was a vitals shot, where the elk just walked off as if nothing happened. A couple more were head shot, one was a brain stem hit. These dropped in place. BTW, the first one was killed, but walked over the hill and dropped there. All these were one shot hits (.30-06 Nosler 165 gr Ballistic tip). I should mention a deer head shot with a .17 Remington, which dropped in place as well. Shot placement.
 
As I previously said, shot placement trumps caliber or bullet type every time. And speaking of what "I've shot" ... several elk, most notable was a vitals shot, where the elk just walked off as if nothing happened. A couple more were head shot, one was a brain stem hit. These dropped in place. BTW, the first one was killed, but walked over the hill and dropped there. All these were one shot hits (.30-06 Nosler 165 gr Ballistic tip). I should mention a deer head shot with a .17 Remington, which dropped in place as well. Shot placement.

Little bit of an old topic, but still needs addressed.

Shot placement is not everything...true, you can kill someone with a .22lr with a good shot and we've just recently heard of dude killing a bear with a pellet gun, but you also have to know the limitations of your caliber. A .223 to the head past 500 yards might not do much more than stun someone and I brought up the point about Congresswoman Gifford being shot in the head with 9mm...that brought up the JHP vs. FMJ debate, but I digress.

What you say is valid. We should take it into point that well placed shots to vital areas will stop someone quicker and more effectively than in a non-vital area. That is without question. Nevertheless the key to bullets is a ratio of how fast the bullet is traveling versus how much it weighs. Faster bullets means more penetration, heavier bullets mean more energy dispersed at impact. Now, I'm not ignorant enough to think that this overly simplified equation means that one bullet is better than another...9mm moves faster than .45 ACP but isn't as heavy as a .45ACP. They both have their pros and cons- they both have limitations and restrictions. Neither one is superior than the other, they just will have completely different results with each circumstance.

All I am saying, folks, is that shot placement isn't everything. People have been shot in the head and the heart with sub-par calibers and lived to tell about it and have been shot elsewhere with considerably bigger calibers and didn't manage to finish their sentence. No one gun or one caliber works for all situations....EVER. That was proven with these officer's .40 S&W pistols and ammunition with this particular shooting.
 
Rememberd reading in article about assailant presumed on angel dust attacking officers they fired between 6-10 shots from 357s perp then got on cruiser attacked car with axe and was shot in face with 12 ga. Thru rear window when he broke thru. Blew off car. when they came back with reinforcements perp was gone. What I took away from incident shoot and move dont stay put,dont count on anything doing exactly what you want.bring friends with guns asap. 12 ga.adjusta-bro's make good levers. Unless you hand out questionares before shooting plan for all senarios use proven tactics for surviving violent encounters
 

Upcoming Events

Tillamook Gun & Knife Show
Tillamook, OR
"The Original" Kalispell Gun Show
Kalispell, MT
Teen Rifle 1 Class
Springfield, OR
Kids Firearm Safety 2 Class
Springfield, OR

New Resource Reviews

New Classified Ads

Back Top