Enjoying Your AR Pistol Legally After New Brace Rules Takes Effect.

[dinky450]

The giessele trigger pack on the tavor makes a giant difference, but yes, the stock trigger is horrible.

Hand loads help with accuracy a lot. I've never experienced 4 moa with it, but 2, yeah.

Practically speaking the difference between the 1 moa 10.5 AR and the 2 moa 16" Tavor, the velocity sacrifice of the short barrel will be more of an issue before the difference in accuracy would be. A 3 inch circle at 300 yards compared to a 6 inch circle but a muzzle velocity difference of about 400 fps can make a big difference down range.

Plugging the numbers:
With a 50 yard zero and using XM193 velocity data for both barrel length and the BC of that bullet.

Yes there is trade off but it has been proven 5.56 still does not fragment even with a 16in barrel. Depending on the round and distance Plays a big part but it's said for the best % chance to fragment you will need a 20in with most rounds. Distance does have a big part in it as we all know and even out of a 16in barrel the chance of fragment drops a lot. That's why they say max effective range is 400-500 yards do to bullet velocity. I have my 10.5 just for fun mostly and if need CQ and it was cheap to build. I do have a desert tech mdrx bulpup 5.56 and .308 which is not as proven as the tavor so far but more refined features imo.

 

[dinky450]

Things will have to get considerably worse for the everyday American before the pin on that grenade is pulled.

That is correct we all have min standard of living before we won't take it anymore. Most will comply unfortunately and won't do anything till we're standing in bread lines. Until it is uncomfortable to go home not many will do anything.

 

[dinky450]

A 16" bullpup is shorter than a 10.5 AR, so the whole maneuvering thing is pointless, as you said, and you are right about the muzzle blast. It's bad enough with ear protection, inside without it would be horrendous.

I run a fortis muzzle brake with blast shield works great no different then a 16in ar with brake. Even with .308 no issue.

 

[American123]

Yes there is trade off but it has been proven 5.56 still does not fragment even with a 16in barrel. Depending on the round and distance Plays a big part but it's said for the best % chance to fragment you will need a 20in with most rounds. Distance does have a big part in it as we all know and even out of a 16in barrel the chance of fragment drops a lot. That's why they say max effective range is 400-500 yards do to bullet velocity. I have my 10.5 just for fun mostly and if need CQ and it was cheap to build. I do have a desert tech mdrx bulpup 5.56 and .308 which is not as proven as the tavor so far but more refined features imo.

Look into soft point bullets, fragmentation isn't critical to still perform well. Heavier weight bullets can also be more effective at lower velocities where distance is less important than performance.

 

[clanhanson]

Yes there is trade off but it has been proven 5.56 still does not fragment even with a 16in barrel. Depending on the round and distance Plays a big part but it's said for the best % chance to fragment you will need a 20in with most rounds. Distance does have a big part in it as we all know and even out of a 16in barrel the chance of fragment drops a lot. That's why they say max effective range is 400-500 yards do to bullet velocity. I have my 10.5 just for fun mostly and if need CQ and it was cheap to build. I do have a desert tech mdrx bulpup 5.56 and .308 which is not as proven as the tavor so far but more refined features imo.

Fragmentation velocity is approximately 2700 fps. A 14.7" AR will fragment reliably to 100 yards, further with a 16" that will reliably pump out 3000+ fps. Your source is either wrong or you misunderstood the ballistics.

I liked the idea of the DT but I refuse to support the owner's cult.

 

[American123]

I run a fortis muzzle brake with blast shield works great no different then a 16in ar with brake. Even with .308 no issue.

Ever shoot it indoors the size of a living room without hearing protection?

 

[dinky450]

It really is another level of discomfort, yes. It's too bad that bullpups are prohibitively expensive to purchase for many, and making them as modular as an AR is often quite spendy (in the case of the AUG, the only 'pup I've enjoyed).

Yep that's why so many have pistol ARs. Just the cost alone most won't step into a new platform. The ability to change parts with any other AR on the ground is another.

 

[American123]

It really is another level of discomfort, yes. It's too bad that bullpups are prohibitively expensive to purchase for many, and making them as modular as an AR is often quite spendy (in the case of the AUG, the only 'pup I've enjoyed).

Yep, the price difference is substantial. My dad was a big fan of the Tavor and wondered why I didn't have more. I pointed out that a Tavor is about the same price as 3 AR's - this was back in the "good days" when the Trump slump of gun prices was in the dirt.

 

[clanhanson]

I run a fortis muzzle brake with blast shield works great no different then a 16in ar with brake. Even with .308 no issue.

You used the word brake. I don't think you understand just how much worse a brake makes the concussion with 5.56. There is a world of difference between a braked and non braked AR regardless of barrel length. 5.56 is anemic enough that a brake is pointless.

 

[dinky450]

Look into soft point bullets, fragmentation isn't critical to still perform well. Heavier weight bullets can also be more effective at lower velocities where distance is less important than performance.

Yep its what my mags are loaded with in the safe. If I were shooting past 100yards for defense my 10.5 AR would not be my choice though. I do have a few 16in options and a few others. It's almost like going to the candy store lol.

 

[dinky450]

You used the word brake. I don't think you understand just how much worse a brake makes the concussion with 5.56. There is a world of difference between a braked and non braked AR regardless of barrel length. 5.56 is anemic enough that a brake is pointless.

You haven't seen many systems with a brake with blast shield then I take it. I've been running them for awhile the do work keeping they muzzle down and shield does your face a favor as well..

 

[clanhanson]

You haven't seen many systems with a brake with blast shield then I take it. I've been running them for awhile the do work keeping the muzzle down and shield does your face a favor as well..

Keeping the muzzle down on a .22 caliber cartridge isn't my first concern. Perhaps .308 and an 18" barrel warrants a brake, but not a powder puff round like 5.56. A tuned buffer system will alleviate any issues with muzzle rise in an AR and won't create unnecessary flash.

I've been down the brake/comp/FH road and spent hundreds doing so. The old A2 works very well at hiding flash and is all that's needed for the platform. Warcomp works if you need a new Instagram photo.

 

[dinky450]

Keeping the muzzle down on a .22 caliber cartridge isn't my first concern. Perhaps .308 and an 18" barrel warrants a brake, but not a powder puff round like 5.56. A tuned buffer system will alleviate any issues with muzzle rise in an AR and won't create unnecessary flash.

I installed them more for concussion mitigation on my shorter barrel ARs and my bulpups.... even standard flash hider is annoying on those set ups. come shoot them if you want to see for yourself.

 

[clanhanson]

I installed them more for concussion mitigation on my shorter barrel ARs and my bulpup up.... even standard flash hider is annoying on those set ups. come shoot them if you want to see for yourself.

A brake most definitely doesn't mitigate concussion. It exacerbates it. Those ports are deliberately designed to create concussion. I own a Tavor with Warcomp, AUG with tulip, AR with a brake that quickly changed to a FH, AR pistol with flash hider, Hellion with comp, 18" FAL with brake, G3 with FH, and a 5.56 bolt action with brake. For the AR I've yet to see a benefit to anything but a flash hider and only see detrimental results using a brake.

 

[Will_White]

I installed them more for concussion mitigation on my shorter barrel ARs and my bulpups.... even standard flash hider is annoying on those set ups. come shoot them if you want to see for yourself.

That's an interesting design, basically turns the muzzle brake into a tiny supressor. https://fortismfg.com/ar15-fortis-muzzle-brake-556-nitride

 

[dinky450]

A brake most definitely doesn't mitigate concussion. It exacerbates it. Those ports are deliberately designed to create concussion. I own a Tavor with Warcomp, AUG with tulip, AR with a brake that quickly changed to a FH, AR pistol with flash hider, Hellion with comp, 18" FAL with brake, G3 with FH, and a 5.56 bolt action with brake. For the AR I've yet to see a benefit to anything but a flash hider and only see detrimental results using a brake.

Not here to get your panties in a bunch about a muzzle brake. I'll do me and you do yourself offer still stands if you want to see the difference.

Control Shield

 

[dinky450]

That's an interesting design, basically turns the muzzle brake into a tiny supressor. https://fortismfg.com/ar15-fortis-muzzle-brake-556-nitride

Yep it's pretty nice actually. Few others make a variant of them. I had a strike industries but it was too heavy. Surefire makes one so you can throw it on when not suppressed.

 

[mhayd93]

True, but the concussion is just ridiculous for what little maneuverability is gained imo. If a short setup is a major concern, I feel a bullpup is truly the best answer. I've fired a 5.56 pistol indoors with no hearing protection. Not only does it deafen, it entirely confuses the senses and causes major disorientation. Sure a suppressor might alleviate some of these issues but the simpler "fix" is once again a bullpup or a standard 16 inch carbine.

AR pistols come in lots of calibers that don't have excessive muzzle blast or concussion.

 

[American123]

Yep it's pretty nice actually. Few others make a variant of them. I had a strike industries but it was too heavy. Surefire makes one so you can throw it on when not suppressed.

Seems like this does the same thing as the flash cannon or whatever it is called, it's a chunk of metal that directs the concussion forward.

 

[Will_White]

Seems like this does the same thing as the flash cannon or whatever it is called, it's a chunk of metal that directs the concussion forward.

It's a flash can with a muzzlebrake inside, shooting gas back and then directing it forward around the muzzle break.