Enjoying Your AR Pistol Legally After New Brace Rules Takes Effect.

[dinky450]

What is "enough" ? I'd take a 16" Tavor over a 10.5 AR for every aspect except legality since a loaded pistol in the car is legal and a rifle isn't.

2-4 moa is not good in my book. My 10.5 will shoot 1moa all day with ok ammo. Tavor has a horrendous trigger as well. My mdrx will shoot 1 moa as well and trigger out of the box is 4.5lbs and after market is 2.5lbs. Tavor is a solid rifle but $1700 better be better than 2-4moa.

 

[arakboss]

isn't "pistol" and "brace" in this context just a legal work-a-round?
View attachment 1226266
(labelled as 7.5 Pistol with SBA3 Brace)

sorry for my ignorance, but to my eyes, that's a rifle and that's a stock.

What's really the difference between that and this?
View attachment 1226267

not much difference which is why both should be legal.

 

[arakboss]

2-4 moa is not good in my book. My 10.5 will shoot 1moa all day with ok ammo. Tavor has a horrendous trigger as well. My mdrx will shoot 1 moa as well and trigger out of the box is 4.5lbs and after market is 2.5lbs. Tavor is a solid rifle but $1700 better be better than 2-4moa.

2-4 MOA at typical self defense distances should make for a very capable handgun. I don't think I can shoot any of my handguns into a 2 to 4 inch group at a 100yds.

 

[biggie24420]

The a-hole in me would say, kiss my behind, come and take it ATF. I think it's funny that our government arms other countries for war/killing yet they have the audacity to mess with us.

I have one AR pistol and a MP5-K (POF SMG). When the time comes, I'll get one of Those six inch flash hiders and add it to my 10.5 AR pistol and convert it to a carbine/rifle (pin&weld). As for the MP5-K, I'll just run it without a brace and use the sling and push out like the SAS

The degenerate AFT (lol) needs to be abolished. They are pieces of crap and no good. A thug organization ….. no? Look at WACO and Ruby Ridge for example…. Want another, more recent example? Fast and furious…. No! Not the movie lol.

I know I sound a bit on the coward side by saying I will comply to a point. But I also have to consider what I have to lose and I also want to live to fight another day. Am I worried that the thugs will come knocking? Nah. I'm not turning anything in and I'm not going to SBR either firearm…… I went through the BS for my suppressor and that was enough. So I'll have a more concealable, lighter weight MP5-K and two AR15 carbines. ATF can go pound sand.

 

[clanhanson]

If you are bailing on AR pistols for reasons not related to the new brace rules, let us know why?

Because of the muzzle blast and concussion in addition to 5.56's poor ballistics out of a short barrel. 16" or more is best for the caliber, everything else is inferior.

 

[Will_White]

Because of the muzzle blast and concussion in addition to 5.56's poor ballistics out of a short barrel. 16" or more is best for the caliber, everything else is inferior.

That's what .300bo and .458 Socom is for.

 

[arakboss]

Because of the muzzle blast and concussion in addition to 5.56's poor ballistics out of a short barrel. 16" or more is best for the caliber, everything else is inferior.

I have read that other cartridges (300 BO, 7.62x39, etc) suffer less velocity loss in shorter barrels?

 

[arakboss]

Because of the muzzle blast and concussion in addition to 5.56's poor ballistics out of a short barrel. 16" or more is best for the caliber, everything else is inferior.

Muzzle blast is a concern and some of the muzzle devices have available these days may mitigate that.

 

[Alexx1401]

I believe those folks in black robes are one of the core issues with the US. They don't really answer to anyone and they mostly have the governments interest (because they are the government). The less power the people have the more power the government has. So, for now, they limit our physical power. Our political power as citizens is already extremely limited.

Sadly they are a law unto themselves. For a LONG time I have watched while many jump up and down and scream about new laws and "rules" as "unconstitutional". Often yes they are but, if some black robe says they fly, they fly. Until people can get a black robe higher up the chain to say they are not. Often this can take years or even decades. In the mean time we have to "live with" the rules. Again this is on the voters. Those black robes do not fall out of the sky and take over. They are put there by the people we vote into office. The great hoax proved no one is going to do anything but a lot of keyboard tough talk. 99% will just go along. If one or two actually take a stand they will of course die or be jailed. If they fight the press will make them out to be kooks and the 99% will agree. So unless more people quit giving up and vote well? We will get exactly the government we deserve.

 

[Alexx1401]

I have one that I bought on a whim a few years ago because it was cheap. It has the "Blade Stabilizer". I haven't taken to time to look into whether this will be OK or not. I figure when all is said and done, if it doesn't make the cut I'll just take it off and chuck it. I might even just make a rifle out of it. To be honest, AR pistols just aren't my thing. I wouldn't miss it.

Nothing against them for you guys who do like them. They're just not my cup of tea.

The AR pistols in rifle caliber have no interest to me either BUT, I support anyone who wants one of course. A LOT of the problems we have now are gun owners who are all in on compromise because it does not effect what they like, YET. Of course down the line it finally does hit something they want but by then its a little late to get mad.

 

[American123]

2-4 moa is not good in my book. My 10.5 will shoot 1moa all day with ok ammo. Tavor has a horrendous trigger as well. My mdrx will shoot 1 moa as well and trigger out of the box is 4.5lbs and after market is 2.5lbs. Tavor is a solid rifle but $1700 better be better than 2-4moa.

The giessele trigger pack on the tavor makes a giant difference, but yes, the stock trigger is horrible.

Hand loads help with accuracy a lot. I've never experienced 4 moa with it, but 2, yeah.

Practically speaking the difference between the 1 moa 10.5 AR and the 2 moa 16" Tavor, the velocity sacrifice of the short barrel will be more of an issue before the difference in accuracy would be. A 3 inch circle at 300 yards compared to a 6 inch circle but a muzzle velocity difference of about 400 fps can make a big difference down range.

Plugging the numbers:
With a 50 yard zero and using XM193 velocity data for both barrel length and the BC of that bullet.

The 10.5 AR will experience about 9.25 inches of drop at 300 yards, have 384 ft-lbs of energy on impact and be traveling 1773 fps.

The 16 inch barrel will see about 2.93 inches of drop at 300, have 538 ft-lbs of energy on impact and be traveling at 2099 fps.

There are trade offs for everything, but personally the difference in accuracy is worth the effects on target. This is something that was often noted in previous years in Iraq and Afghanistan as combatants would be hit, but not taken out of the fight because at the ranges they were engaged the bullets just simply were not as damaging as they needed to be.

https://i0.wp.com/rifleshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/m193-barrel-length-and-velocity-26-to-6-inches.png?ssl=1

 

[American123]

Sadly they are a law unto themselves. For a LONG time I have watched while many jump up and down and scream about new laws and "rules" as "unconstitutional". Often yes they are but, if some black robe says they fly, they fly. Until people can get a black robe higher up the chain to say they are not. Often this can take years or even decades. In the mean time we have to "live with" the rules. Again this is on the voters. Those black robes do not fall out of the sky and take over. They are put there by the people we vote into office. The great hoax proved no one is going to do anything but a lot of keyboard tough talk. 99% will just go along. If one or two actually take a stand they will of course die or be jailed. If they fight the press will make them out to be kooks and the 99% will agree. So unless more people quite giving up and vote well? We will get exactly the government we deserve.

Things will have to get considerably worse for the everyday American before the pin on that grenade is pulled. We are still in a functioning society currently, even though there is some very blatant corruption, it hasn't yet had the effect to turns the lives upside down of many Americans. When people have little or nothing to lose, that is when they see additional, less civil options, as far more prudent.

 

[Alexx1401]

Things will have to get considerably worse for the everyday American before the pin on that grenade is pulled. We are still in a functioning society currently, even though there is some very blatant corruption, it hasn't yet had the effect to turns the lives upside down of many Americans. When people have little or nothing to lose, that is when they see additional, less civil options, as far more prudent.

That is what scares me. We have created a HUGE population that is totally dependent of gov to live. Family's that have multi generations who have never had a job. If we crash and that free food stops? Those people will form roving mobs. Will not be pretty.

 

[American123]

That is what scares me. We have created a HUGE population that is totally dependent of gov to live. Family's that have multi generations who have never had a job. If we crash and that free food stops? Those people will form roving mobs. Will not be pretty.

Pretty sure it was Stomper that mentioned that earlier. The bodies of roving mobs can make "sandbag walls" and be a visual reminder of which neighborhoods to avoid.

Totally agreed though. Who would have thought that we'd see baby food shortages, or toilet paper shortages, etc. with fuel prices skyrocketing, food costs and potential shortages are bound to result. There was a thread a year or more ago that talked about being worried about food shortages.

From a market perspective, I wasn't, because the market always responds to meet demand, but what I didn't fully consider was how the government hamstrings the market response and how anytime the government gets involved with anything they generally make it worse.

Obama was quoted saying, "don't under estimate Joe's ability to screw things up." Obama was wrong on a lot of things, but he nailed that one.

 

[sobo]

The AR pistols in rifle caliber have no interest to me either BUT, I support anyone who wants one of course. A LOT of the problems we have now are gun owners who are all in on compromise because it does not effect what they like, YET. Of course down the line it finally does hit something they want but by then its a little late to get mad.

Martin Niemöller said it best...

First they came for the Communists bump stocks
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist did not have a bump stock

Then they came for the Socialists AR pistols
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist did not have an AR pistol

Then they came for the trade unionists semi-automatic "assault rifles"
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist did not have a semi-automatic "assault rifle"

Then they came for the Jews semi-auto handguns
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew did not have a semi-auto handgun

Then they came for me my guns
And there was no one left
To speak out for me my guns

 

[mhayd93]

Conjecture is fun.

It can definitely be fun; it's at least more enjoyable than being a defeatist

 

[clanhanson]

Muzzle blast is a concern and some of the muzzle devices have available these days may mitigate that.

True, but the concussion is just ridiculous for what little maneuverability is gained imo. If a short setup is a major concern, I feel a bullpup is truly the best answer. I've fired a 5.56 pistol indoors with no hearing protection. Not only does it deafen, it entirely confuses the senses and causes major disorientation. Sure a suppressor might alleviate some of these issues but the simpler "fix" is once again a bullpup or a standard 16 inch carbine.

 

[clanhanson]

That's what .300bo and .458 Socom is for.

Exactly. People using 7.5" 5.56 ARs are in for a big surprise once they require firing in an enclosed and/or dark environment. 14.5" is the shortest I'll go for 5.56/.223.

 

[American123]

True, but the concussion is just ridiculous for what little maneuverability is gained imo. If a short setup is a major concern, I feel a bullpup is truly the best answer. I've fired a 5.56 pistol indoors with no hearing protection. Not only does it deafen, it entirely confuses the senses and causes major disorientation. Sure a suppressor might alleviate some of these issues but the simpler "fix" is once again a bullpup or a standard 16 inch carbine.

A 16" bullpup is shorter than a 10.5 AR, so the whole maneuvering thing is pointless, as you said, and you are right about the muzzle blast. It's bad enough with ear protection, inside without it would be horrendous.

 

[clanhanson]

A 16" bullpup is shorter than a 10.5 AR, so the whole maneuvering thing is pointless, as you said, and you are right about the muzzle blast. It's bad enough with ear protection, inside without it would be horrendous.

It really is another level of discomfort, yes. It's too bad that bullpups are prohibitively expensive to purchase for many, and making them as modular as an AR is often quite spendy (in the case of the AUG, the only 'pup I've enjoyed).