Will AR pistols and other braced pistols drop in price after ATF rule?

[Flopsweat]

So does that mean that braced shotguns are now considered SBS and must be registered for $200.00 ea OR that they are still braced shotguns and unaffected by the brace-to-SBR ruling?

I don't think it addresses it at all.

 

[RyanG90]

I have a trust through sporting systems, if they are offering it for free why not just add them? What do you have to do with the brace while in “paperwork jail”?

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

I have a trust through sporting systems, if they are offering it for free why not just add them? What do you have to do with the brace while in “paperwork jail”?

25. PRIOR TO AND AFTER THE EXPIRATION OF THE 120-DAY TAX FORBEARANCE, CAN I CONTINUE TO POSSESS MY SBR EQUIPPED WITH A "STABILIZING BRACE" IF I HAVE TIMELY SUBMITTED MY APPLICATION TO REGISTER MY FIREARM?
• Yes. Provided you are not otherwise prohibited from possession of a firearm under Federal or State law, you may continue to lawfully possess your SBR while your registration application is pending with ATF. While your application is pending, you should maintain proof of submission as evidence of continued lawful possession.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/faqfinalrule2021r-08f-correctedpdf/download

 

[RyanG90]

25. PRIOR TO AND AFTER THE EXPIRATION OF THE 120-DAY TAX FORBEARANCE, CAN I CONTINUE TO POSSESS MY SBR EQUIPPED WITH A "STABILIZING BRACE" IF I HAVE TIMELY SUBMITTED MY APPLICATION TO REGISTER MY FIREARM?
• Yes. Provided you are not otherwise prohibited from possession of a firearm under Federal or State law, you may continue to lawfully possess your SBR while your registration application is pending with ATF. While your application is pending, you should maintain proof of submission as evidence of continued lawful possession.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/faqfinalrule2021r-08f-correctedpdf/download

Great thanks !

 

[BlueRibbonHW]

What's the turnaround time on these stamps? I ask because I may be moving out of state and I already have a can that's 7 months in the queue. I was told if I change my permanent address before the stamp is approved, I'll be forced to start the process completely over.

 

[arakboss]

What's your prediction? Will AR pistols, PCCs and all the (not really) pistols designed to be fired with braces/stocks plummet in price now that they'll be considered SBRs? Surely a large part of their demand/popularity was the brace loophole.

I would think they will drop in value but you can still own them without the brace.

 

[6Corsa6]

So does that mean that braced shotguns are now considered SBS and must be registered for $200.00 ea OR that they are still braced shotguns and unaffected by the brace-to-SBR ruling?

Exactly, that is what I'm wondering

 

[Flopsweat]

I don't think it addresses it at all.

I was misinformed. The letter does mention shotguns, but it's a dense couple of paragraphs. It seems at first to only apply to Shockwave - style firearms with a horizontal grip:




Also in 2014, an individual asked ATF to examine the SB15 "stabilizing brace" on a firearm commonly known as a "pistol grip firearm" with a smooth bore to verify that the firearm is not regulated under the NFA. On October 28, 2014, ATF concluded: (1) that a forward grip (an additional handgrip toward the front of the firearm in addition to the pistol grip) attached to a pistol redesigns the firearm to be fired with two hands and therefore the firearm is no longer a "handgun" or "pistol," and (2) that it would be classified as "any other weapon" pursuant to 26 U.S.C. 5845(e) under the NFA if its 23 Letter from ATF #301737 (Mar. 5, 2014). 24 Id. 25 Id. 26 This and otherATFclassificationletters before 2018referred to whether a "brace" had been classified as a shoulder stock. However, the proper inquiry as towhether a weapon is a "rifle" under the NFA andthe GCA is not whether a particular component or accessoryof the weapon is a stock, but whether the firearm, as configured,is "designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder." 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). As this rule explains,ATF later corrected the standard it was applyingby considering whether firearms configured with a "stabilizing brace" were intended to be fired from the shoulder. The focus on classifying an item as a "stock"was one of the issues that led to inconsistencies in ATF's classification of these firearms. 22 overall length is less than 26 inches or if it is actually concealed on the person.27 The overall length of the submitted firearm was 27-1/4 inches and therefore ATF determined that, as submitted, the firearm was subject to regulation under the GCA but was not an NFA firearm, "provided the SigTac SB15 pistol stabilizing brace is used as originally designed and NOT used as a shoulder stock."28 In essence, ATF's original analysis focused on whether the inclusion of the forward grip subjected the firearm to the NFA, but ATF did not consider how the classification would be affected if a "pistol grip firearm" without a forward grip were to incorporate a "stabilizing brace." Nevertheless, the addition of a "stabilizing brace" to these types of firearms does not assist with onehanded firing but rather redesigns the firearm by providing surface area for firing from the shoulder. Therefore, these types of firearms would fall within the purview of the NFA as short-barreled shotguns. 26 U.S.C. 5845(d). Because these types of firearms were never designed to be fired from one hand, this rule, as described in the NPRM, does not apply to firearms commonly referred to as pistol grip shotguns.29 86 FR at 30828–29. The 2014 classification described above and any classification that provides that a pistol grip shotgun is not an NFA firearm is no longer valid or authoritative as of [INSERT DATE OF PUBLICATION IN THE FEDERAL REGISTER], and the firearm should be resubmitted to FATD for evaluation.

Is that confusing enough for you?

Then there's this footnote:
29 FATD experts state that a "pistol grip shotgun" typically refers to a weapon with the following attributes: (1) overall length of over 26 inches; (2) 12-gauge, smooth-bore barrel under 18 inches; (3) utilizes a shotgun-type receiver that has never had a shoulder stock attached; and(4) fitted with a "bird's head" grip in lieu of a shoulder stock.

This makes no sense at all. The NFA defines a Shotgun as "… a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smoothbore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger. A shotgun is a firearm subject to the NFA if the shotgun has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or is less than 26 inches in overall length."

This puts the "FATD experts" in contradiction with the NFA. There is no NFA category called "pistol grip shotgun". The only "shotgun" categories are Shotgun and Short-Barreled Shotgun. A Shotgun is by definition shoulder fired. The definition of a Short-Barreled Shotgun builds on that previous definition: "Shotguns having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length." The Shockwave and Tac14 are not shoulder-fired and therefore cannot possibly be a Shotgun. It then follows that they cannot be a Short-Barreled Shotgun.

And they go on:

The worksheet assigned points to various criteria, as further described below. The NPRM explained that the proposed criteria and worksheet did not apply to firearms commonly referred to as "pistol grip shotguns," as they were never designed to be held and fired using one hand (e.g., Mossberg Shockwave, Remington Tac-14).72 See also 86 FR at 30828–29. As discussed in section II.B of this preamble, these firearms are specifically designed to be fired with two hands. ATF has always classified these weapons as "firearms" under the GCA, and not as "shotguns," because they do not incorporate a shoulder stock and are not designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder like a shotgun. Nor has ATF classified these weapons as "pistols," as they are not designed to be held and fired in one hand like a pistol. Thus, the addition of a "stabilizing brace" does not assist with single-handed firing, but instead providessurface area that allows for firing from the shoulder. Therefore, a "pistol grip shotgun" equipped with a "stabilizing brace" and a barrel of less than 18 inches is an NFA "firearm," i.e., a short-barreled shotgun.73

I am truly not sure what they mean by all of this, but it sure seems overly complicated and self-contradictory.

 

[jamez]

Picked up a factory new CMMG Banshee for $750 on gunbroker...
SPA3 stribogs with braces had a flash sale for $599 on one site, sold out before I could grab one... so I guess prices are dropping

 

[ilikegunspdx]

What's your prediction? Will AR pistols, PCCs and all the (not really) pistols designed to be fired with braces/stocks plummet in price now that they'll be considered SBRs? Surely a large part of their demand/popularity was the brace loophole.

I didn't read the thread so it may have already been mentioned that the supply of advertised braces has already gone up and demand has went down so prices have decreased.

The supply of pistol buffer tubes has went down and demand has went up. I assume the price of those may increase but they are so cheap who cares.

No idea on the supply and demand of subguns and AR rifles as I haven't been watching those.

 

[osprey]

I think there are outright ban proof variants, but so also think a shortened cheek brace with a rounded or pointed end that dissuades shouldering is proof enough on paper that it’s a device not intended for shouldering. Pair that with OAL or a new standard tube length be it 1-2 inches shorter, they’ll have to define this exact number.. then it fits within the new policy and I think the market will be quick to skirt this nonsense. It does seem like simply taking off the brace and using only the tube meets the criteria on paper for a portion of it. Seems to mostly read as if they are focused on shouldering, OAL and weight. Bench shooting and cheek-welding seem to be an ungraspable concept for them and I truly believe the market will exploit this raw ignorance put on display by the ATF. Basically this mew policy is just a means to cut off the brace market at the knees and cripple it. But the damage is done, far too many brace owners out there to comply let alone file for SBR status.

The weight focus is a bit out there. I’d love to see an AFT agent shoot a air weight 500 S&W single handed.. as if weight isn’t also a means to aid in ramping down recoil.. if anything shouldn’t a firearm be heavier and MORE cumbersome versus smaller and lighter and easier to conceal?
All they are trying to do with this weight ruling is basically ban out all but the skeletonized featherweight firearms.. it’s a blanket rule catch-all.

Thankfully the ATF is overreaching with the sights/optics portion too. Optics and sights have little to do with shouldering. I run red dots at various lengths on firearms.. so to prove intent of shouldering via eye relief is a bit out in the weeds.. I think it’s a weak argument on their part should this go to court.

The sight thing is laughable. Flipping up buis and using large aperture, I find it very easy to use at arms length.

 

[Idaho44]

The 'meat' for the ATF was all those "tacticool dudes" showing how they 'shouldered' the brace. So please give them a big shoutout and thanks for their intelligence! "Free Tax Stamp", just like a "free" lunch or condo tour with gift!

 

[Mint]

If I were in any kind of position I would write a law specifically banning actions from the ATF going forward. Then I would tack it on to some other bill that Biden really needs, and then I would essentially force him to sign it.

 

[Camelfilter]

The 'meat' for the ATF was all those "tacticool dudes" showing how they 'shouldered' the brace. So please give them a big shoutout and thanks for their intelligence! "Free Tax Stamp", just like a "free" lunch or condo tour with gift!

You mean after the ATF stated it was legal to shoulder the brace? All those folks? Who posted videos of doing what was legal?

Please, by all means continue to place blame on anyone other than the ATF...

 

[1BoredGuy]

What's your prediction? Will AR pistols, PCCs and all the (not really) pistols designed to be fired with braces/stocks plummet in price now that they'll be considered SBRs? Surely a large part of their demand/popularity was the brace loophole.

Today's braced firearms will still be for sale... mostly without braces.
After the 120 days, a lot of new buyers standing in the gun store will be less interested in those "large format pistols" (that once had braces) since following the "rules" and adding surface area means paying a $200 tax stamp and registration.

I think things with no buffer tube like the SCAR, MCX, and Bren2 will still sell well enough, no matter if the buyer intends to SBR or not. I don't predict a price change for those due to the brace rule. People who are willing to spend $2000 to $3500 on a pistol like those are more likely OK with a $200 tax.

However, the usual short barrel AR15s with no stock or brace, and just a naked tube OR with a cheek pad is obviously loosing practicality and coolness without a stock. So I'd expect those sales to fall unless someone invents something to satisfy that itch.

Bullpups, if developed more, might become more appealing for those who want short rifles with a stock.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Bullpups, if developed more, might become more appealing for those who want short rifles with a stock.

Only fly in that concept would be the GCA addition of "16" barreled rifle if under 26" OAL=SBR" to "16" or less =SBR" that's why the IWI Tavor has a 16.5" barrel to make 26" OAL.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Bullpups, if developed more, might become more appealing for those who want short rifles with a stock.

The mag restriction part of the It's A Crime, Bill really drove the development of subcompact pistols, better bullpups feel like a predictable outcome of this

 

[1BoredGuy]

Only fly in that concept would be the GCA addition of "16" barreled rifle if under 26" OAL=SBR" to "16" or less =SBR" that's why the IWI Tavor has a 16.5" barrel to make 26" OAL.

Agreed. I suppose the OAL minimum isn't really short short.