Do we really need months of waiting and an expensive stamp to own an SBR?

[arakboss]

IIRC, it's not so much OAL as "minimum fireable length"--tube end to muzzle crown, unless you pin-and-solder your MD. IANAL or an ATF jackboot, though... Some of the 26" argument is because ATF made Auto-Ordnance stretch the Pistol Thompson by 3" for an "approved" VFG config.

Here is text from letter I haven't been able to confirm regarding measuring weapon with brace:

"This is in reply to your recent email to the Firearms Industry Programs Branch (FIPB) Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) seeking information on measuring the overall length of a pistol fitted with an arm stabilizing brace.

Regarding muzzle devices (silencers, flash suppressors or muzzle breaks etc.)Provided that an added muzzle device was permanently attached and completely non-removable it would count towards the overall length and barrel length of the weapon it was permanently attached too.

No specific torque amount is used to determine if a muzzle device is permanently attached. It is the method of attachment which is utilized to determine if the muzzle device is permanently attached. In order to be considered as "permanently attached" a muzzle device would have to be attached to a weapons barrel by means of welding, high-temperature (1100º F) silver soldering; or blind pinning.

Overall length is measured from the end of the arm stabilizing brace to the end of the barrel, be sure that the weapon is level, a large framing square can help with this. If a vertical forward grip is fitted and the stabilizing brace is needed to keep the pistols overall length at 26 inches or greater then the vertical forward grip must be removed before the stabilizing brace. If a vertical forward grip is placed on a pistol which is less than 26 inches in overall length an "any other weapon" (AOW) is created. Creating an AOW without first completing the proper NFA forms, paying the required 200.00 tax and receiving approval from the ATF NFA Branch is unlawful and would subject the violator to arrest and prosecution. We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your evaluation request.

Michael S Knapp Program Manager Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Firearms and Explosives Industry Division"

 

[The Heretic]

Per the ATF there is no debate, the length is from the collapsed position and from the breech to end of the barrel (a permanent muzzle device counts as the end, one that isn't permanent does not).

 

[arakboss]

Per the ATF there is no debate, the length is from the collapsed position and from the breech to end of the barrel (a permanent muzzle device counts as the end, one that isn't permanent does not).

do you have a link to ATF instructions for measuring "Firearms" that confirms that?

 

[The Heretic]

do you have a link to ATF instructions for measuring "Firearms" that confirms that?

Start with this:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-chapter-2/download

But it does not mention the collapsed brace position. I was going by googling it.

 

[EPS]

 

[arakboss]

Yeah I had looked at this before but it is old school info and doesn't address (very well) the new phenomena of the AR pistol, "firearms" and braces. I think we are going to need a letter from the ATF like the one I posted above but with confirmation that it is legit. I believe the mossberg shockwave is measured from end of birdhead thingy. So I would be comfortable measuring the AR "Firearm" from the end of brace. Some people think you can only measure from end of ext tube. That doesn't seem right to me.

 

[arakboss]

View attachment 485086 View attachment 485087 View attachment 485088 View attachment 485089

That side folder is awesome but that begs the question is the measurement from side folder extended or folded when measuring a "firearm". In a "rifle" it is measured with side folder stock unfolded but what about on a "firearm"?

 

[The Heretic]

ATF Measuring OAL With Brace Folded? - The Firearm Blog

My understanding is that if the firearm can function as intended with any device removed (and it can be removed) or folded or collapsed, then the OAL does not count that device.

Hence, a collapsible stock needs to be collapsed to measure the legal length. A folding stock needs to be folded to measure the length. If a muzzle device is removable, then it does not count.

This makes it sound - to me - like a pistol brace doesn't count to the OAL as the firearm (a pistol) was designed to function without it. The buffer tube would count (assuming it is not one of those ARs with a recoil system that doesn't require a buffer tube; e.g., Rock River PDS?). A folding stock/brace on most ARs would have to be measured extended as most ARs won't function with the stock folded.

There is a lot of different scenarios, but I believe they are based on the basic rule of functioning as designed.

Technically, many rifles can function without the stock - most would be barely function, but generally not "as designed" or intended.

 

[EPS]

That side folder is awesome but that begs the question is the measurement from side folder extended or folded when measuring a "firearm". In a "rifle" it is measured with side folder stock unfolded but what about on a "firearm"?

I don't know they both have law tactical folder on them but you obviously can't fire the gun with it folded

 

[EPS]

And PSA sales a kit you just supply your lower

 

[The Heretic]

That side folder is awesome but that begs the question is the measurement from side folder extended or folded when measuring a "firearm". In a "rifle" it is measured with side folder stock unfolded but what about on a "firearm"?

Most ARs will not function when the stock is folded as they usually require that the buffer tube be in place. So the OAL is measured with the stock unfolded.

 

[EPS]

I guess you could fire it ONCE AND PROBABLY ONLY ONCE

 

[arakboss]

And PSA sales a kit you just supply your lower View attachment 485091

I posted that on r/gundeals yesterday and it went out of stock but was back in stock this morning. It is one of the best deals I have seen on decent AR pistol kit.

 

[arakboss]

Here is a scary article: ATF Measuring OAL With Brace Folded? - The Firearm Blog

If this is the latest letter on the issue it would give me great pause to installing my KAK brace on my rifle and using it at length I was planning setting it at.

 

[EPS]

I know that all the lowers I bought where sold as OTHER.
because I asked and saw the form they checked the other box .
AR that I bought was sold as a rifle because I bought it whole.so that one can never be made into a pistol

 

[arakboss]

I know that all the lowers I bought where sold as OTHER.
because I asked and saw the form they checked the other box .
AR that I bought was sold as a rifle because I bought it whole.so that one can never be made into a pistol

So after reading through a bunch of this article it seems as though there is some magical length that braces cannot exceed from most rearward part of weapon. I could not find the actual measurement but this is exactly the situation that I thought could happen. This could be the first strike in the BATF war against short weapons. The braces on "firearms" is low hanging fruit. Keep in mind this action is happening under a semi gun friendly administration. Who knows where this will go when parties in the White House change.

 

[EPS]

Both mine are around 30 inches unfolded

 

[Skier]

I did some research a couple months back, to see what I could find regarding legal requirements/details on AR Pistols, and emailed it to a few friend who were curious... Here's a copy of what I found/understood...

Reminders about some of the special laws for AR Pistols and items related to them, in case you ever happen to get one.

-You CAN use the angled foregrips, but you CANNOT use a vertical foregrip. Here's ATF Letter on attaching vertical foregrips to pistols/handguns (not legal without a tax stamp):
https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download

And here's a page that has info/links to documents showing that angled foregrips are okay:
ATF letter stating that the Magpul AFG is legal for use on AR pistols - Ronin's Grips

-You cannot attach normal shoulder stocks to an AR pistol (or any other pistol) without it becoming an NFA item:
If a person has a pistol and an attachable shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

-AR Pistols are not intended or designed to be fired from the shoulder (with or without a pistol stabilizing brace, like the Sig Brace, the Tailhook, or the Shockware Blade), and for a while, doing so was somewhat of a gray area from a legal point of view. Some of the links I've included below may help shed some light on that issue. I suggest you read it and understand it to the best of your ability to make sure you draw your own conclusion that you're comfortable with on the law. The common understanding here is that the ATF originally said that shouldering an AR pistol with a pistol stabilizing brace constituted a redesign of the firearm, and thus it became an NFA regulated firearm (i.e. an SBR) when fired from the shoulder (requiring a tax stamp). Here's that letter:
https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

About 2 years later, SB-Tactical contacted the ATF for clarification and requested a reversal of that decision, which it is generally perceived to have been given, essentially stating that if you modify a brace from the originally approved design (even including removing the Velcro from the Sig Brace) , and shouldered it, then it's an NFA (SBR) firearm (another example I could come up with that might be considered "redesign," could be something like adding some padding on the end of a Shockwave Blade to make it more padded/comfortable to fire from the shoulder), but if you don't modify it from the original design, then incidental shouldering would NOT constitute a redesign, and thus it would remain a legal AR pistol, and not become an SBR. Here's a copy of the 2017 reversal letter:
https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/atf-letter-march-21-2017.pdf

While overall, my interpretation of the law in the letter from the ATF is that their clarification letter included all approved braces that are used in their original configuration, for completeness, here's a couple dissenting opinions for your consideration.
ATF Reportedly Approves Shouldering the Shockwave Pistol Brace - The Truth About Guns
PSA: Critical Analysis Of Shouldering A Brace - The Firearm Blog

After reading the dissenting opinions, maybe reread the reversal letter and see if you agree that it sounds like they're referring to any pistol brace that has been approved, not just the one from the specific manufacturer that was asking. That's what I got out of it.

-When attaching stabilizers like the Shockwave Blade to an AR pistol, you tighten a set screw to secure it in place, and you should probably use Loctite on it to help keep the screw from backing out, but if you do so, you should only use Blue Loctite (considered temporary), NOT Red Loctite (considered Permanent), as pistol braces are not "permanently mounted" devices like a standard shoulder stock.

-I believe that to stay out of the gray area regarding being a shoulder stock, a person attaching a Shockwave Blade would need to make sure it's "length of pull" (LOP) stays below 13.5 inches. I'm not sure exactly how this is measured, but here's what one person said "From the very rear of the Blade to the face of the trigger," and here's another quote that sounds official from a person on Facebook posting on the Shockwave page:

"Length of Pull (LOP) on the shotgun or rifle is the distance from the trigger to the back center of the butt plate or recoil pad. LOP is one of the primary measurements in determining if the gun 'fits' the shooter."

Here's a link from the Shockwave Site supporting the two previous statements (regarding Loctite and LOP). It would be nice if they had this in writing from the ATF, but at least you know what the Shockwave Blade manufacturer is saying they were told by the ATF:
ATF Says That Shouldering Shockwave Blade is Okay! | Shockwave Technologies

Here's a couple more related links from the Blade Manufacturer:
SHOCK
http://wizardinfosys.com/developmen...s/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/a_a-739x1024.jpg
http://wizardinfosys.com/developmen...es/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/a1-739x1024.jpg
Shockwave Technologies

Here's a nice summary that someone wrote (just opinion, of course, but this is generally where I'd stand as well):
"
Here's the deal with modification:
1. If you do not modify an approved device, you are safe.
2. If you modify the device in any way that has the effect of:
a. Preventing the brace from being used as a brace, and [/or]
b. Making it only useful as a stock

Then you have created an illegal stock.

Gun owners are typical Type A people who want hard and fast rules to follow, but law doesn't always work that way. ATF does not have either the time or the imagination to come up with everything that is OK for you to do and everything not OK for you to do. They are saying that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck.

ATF is giving its opinion and examples as a guide and signal of intent. The unmodified brace is a safe harbor. Any modification you make to a brace is at your own peril.
"

-If a person was to take an 80% lower and complete it, or perhaps print a complete AR lower on a 3D printer, then, as I understand it, if it was built for and/or first attached to an AR pistol, then that lower is an AR pistol lower. If you have an AR pistol lower, again, as I understand it, you could use that on a standard (e.g. carbine/rifle) upper, and that would be fine. But, if you milled/printed an AR lower to be for a carbine or rifle or first attached it to a carbine/rifle, then it was manufactured as a non-pistol lower, and if you subsequently attach that to an upper with a barrel under 16", then you've assembled an SBR and require a tax stamp to own/use legally.

-Likewise, if you purchase an AR lower and you wanted to use it for an AR pistol, you'd need to make sure it's not sold as, marketed as, marked as, or specifically intended for use on an AR Rifle (i.e. it should either specifically be sold as an AR Pistol lower, or at a minimum, generic and not specified as anything to the contrary). You can find details about this on page 2 of the follow letter (the 2nd link is page 2):
http://blog.roninsgrips.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/AR_Pistol_1.jpg
http://blog.roninsgrips.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/AR_Pistol_2.jpg
http://blog.roninsgrips.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/AR_Pistol_3.jpg


So, that's what I've learned/gathers on the subject. Enjoy!

-Skier

P.S. Disclaimer. I'm not a lawyer/attourney/judge/etc ... I just just like to know things, research things I don't know (but which I'm curious about), and do my best to read and understand the law as best as i can, using all available/credible info available, along with reason and use of terms in their common, generally understood, and/or well-defined meaning, and I sometimes share what I've learned with friends who might not be as detail/research-oriented as I tend to be. ;-) That said, don't take anything I say as legal advice or as guaranteed to be true as the Bible, as it's just my best understanding at the time of writing/posting, and certainly open to correction.

 

[EPS]

I did some research a couple months back, to see what I could find regarding legal requirements/details on AR Pistols, and emailed it to a few friend who were curious... Here's a copy of what I found/understood...

Yes I saw a video a guy design a pad for the blade and was planning on sales of it but ATF said NO GO that would make it a SBR

 

[The Heretic]

So after reading through a bunch of this article it seems as though there is some magical length that braces cannot exceed from most rearward part of weapon. I could not find the actual measurement but this is exactly the situation that I thought could happen. This could be the first strike in the BATF war against short weapons. The braces on "firearms" is low hanging fruit. Keep in mind this action is happening under a semi gun friendly administration. Who knows where this will go when parties in the White House change.

I have read (not on the ATF site or a letter) that the LOP must be 13" or less for a 'brace'. Not sure on the logic of that.

As for the current admin being 'gun friendly', I haven't seen one of those in decades. They claim to be such, but when the rubber meets the road, an evidence of that is superficial if not totally lacking. But your point is that political support (or rather, low level of animosity) could be much worse and we are still seeing problems.