Die quality and why do you choose one make over another

[Stevenav]

The replies so far have been interesting.

One thing I've noted is that Lee seems to get a hard rap for being inexpensive and having issues with quality in regards to construction materials (ie rusting, etc)
I'm not sure I buy that. I've yet to see any die that doesn't get some rust on it IF you don't take care of it.

I keep mine pretty much bathed in wd40 or oils to both keep the dies clean and rust free and have no problems there.

Now one thing I did notice as being brought up was the screw locking rings that some die manufacturers use as opposed to the o-ring lock nut that Lee uses or the dual nutsother use. I totally get that. Those screw locked nuts are a great thing if you're swapping out dies a lot. Put it in, dial in the perfect depth and lock it down tight permanently and accurately. However I've not had a lick of trouble with the Lee when I use the quick change die bushings instead. I dial in the dept. Tighten the oring nut and leave the quick change bushing on the die permanently. Just saying... Seems to work fine for me.

As to breakages and tolerances Which dies are most notorious for breakages? Me and my brother used RCBS and Lee all the time when he was reloading... and I can't think of any breakages I've ever encountered if you use the tools correctly and use proper care. Sure you can blow a depriming pin if you sit there and try and ream on it, but if you need to put that much pressure on it chances are you're doing something wrong, and need to stop doing that.

Thing is... I've been looking closely and I can see that some dies appear to simply be better engineered. Redding and Forster especially seem to really take extra care to really think their dies out and demand extra precision. I'm just not sure that that extra precision really translates to a better die since the tolerance differences are so small

 

[clambo]

I use old Herter's, Lee, and RCBS dies. I've never had issues with any of them. I'm not an engineer nor a match shooter but they all turn out good ammo for me. I own and have owned many rifles that would shoot sub MOA using these dies and well matched charges/components. Same goes for handguns. My thinking is unless you're in the top 1% of competitive shooters it probably doesn't matter too much.

 

[deadshot2]

if you use the tools correctly and use proper care.

I've often seen people totally abuse their tools and equipment and then it's the fault of the manufacturer that it broke.

I have some tools that were my fathers, purchased at the end of WWII and they're still in fine condition. Weren't even expensive tools, just hardware store type.

I have Lee Dies that have been with me for nearly 40 years of loading. There's not a thing wrong with any. Some people may want some ultra precision but the need to then step into a different price class. You won't make more accurate ammo with the expensive dies if your rifle isn't capable of the type of accuracy you're trying to achieve.

Now if you're the kind of person that has to drive some kind of designer foreign car to impress everyone, then you certainly won't be happy with Lee dies. They just sit there and load ammo without the fancy.

 

[Stevenav]

Thanks for that Deadshot.

I've been using lee for a while now and genuinely wondering if I'd made the wrong choice. Not because of the quality of the products I was producing, but because of a perceived lack of quality. I'd head "lee is good value for what you pay for it... but that usually equates with "you get what you pay for" rather than them being worthwhile die makers. I hear a lot of people looking down their nose at them (and honestly I myself laugh reading the 2nd edition modern handloading book... which is so full of plugs for lee equipment and extolling the virtues of it that it might as well come with a warning "this books author is going to gush ridiculously about his own products... so make sure to have an iron stomach) but I've yet to have a single bad (or more accurately... not even one less than fantastic) round come out of my press with them. as a result I'm kind of left puzzled "why are people so stuck on this or that product line and what makes them so much better? Are my rounds inferior... am I just so clueless I can't tell?"

I decap my 5.7x28, clean it, trim it, chamfer it, reprime it, charge it, seat my bullets... all with lee dies and equipment and that's one of the hardest rounds there are to do from what everyone says... but my lee stuff does it just fine and in fact I'm getting better shooting results out of my handloads than anything I've gotten from FN...ever.

When you mentioned this.

>>>I've often seen people totally abuse their tools and equipment and the it's the fault of the manufacturer that it broke.

I recall a story that Richard Lee relates in his story. That some huge burly guy was talking about how hard he had to press to get the primers into the pockets... only the guy was pressing the full length of the press to get it in... thinking he had to take it too the bottom of the press to be fully seated and that he'd broken several primer arms doing so.

Turns out the guy was mashing the primers so deeply in that they were ending up recessed in the pocket instead of just seating them to the depth they needed to be because he didn't know his tool and didn't use it correctly.

People misusing their equipment through ignorance or just not sitting down and reading a couple manuals or taking a class from a more experienced loader.. well it seems to be a problem that's pretty common eh?

I like your attitude though... that they just load ammo. Isn't that what we're doing this for? To have a little fun, play with our funny tools and produce something practical and fun out of it.

 

[rrojohnso]

Personally, I think Lee are just fine. I could spend more money, and get a hair better performance from my rounds, but I take care of the dies, set them up well, and haven't had the pin breaking problems others have had (and I have loaded thousands of rounds). I am meticulous & thorough when it comes to case prep, and I use a flash hole uniformer. So maybe that's why my pins haven't been broken? I do not, however, uniform the flash holes in my pistol, and haven't had a problem at all with the 45 dies. Dies I have used are 45 ACP and .308, both are Lee. I load for bolt action and FL resize for an AR-10 & lever action for .308. I do use the factory crimp die from Lee, and it's a must have for my needs, but YMMV.

Accuracy? I can and have put four shots in the size of a dime at 100 yards on a bench with sand bags at the front, steadying the butt of the stock on my own hand (my bolt action). I can shoot that pretty consistently. I do have a flyer issue, but that could be me, the wind, or the wizardry... and I am working on it - I don't think it's a die issue. I am not a match shooter currently (though how could I define that from comments written above?), but how much better could I do with a die that costs 4 times as much as a Lee? Maybe a little better? Maybe if I compete, it will be worth spending the extra money. But why? I hit what I aim at, and many mule deer & elk have been taken with this rifle and my rounds with great performance. Lee is good enough for me.

 

[deadshot2]

I do have a flyer issue,

Something to try. When shooting groups, and you get a flyer, set that case aside. Do this with every case that produces a flyer.

The next time you load use these cases as a group and see if they produce consistent loads at all. If they do, then keep them in a group and don't mix with the rest of the cases that shot nice tight groups before.

Some cases just have their own peculiarities. Variations in the metal structure that causes different bullet release pressures or maybe just "wizardry".

I watched a very accomplished BR shooter do this. If he had a case that produced a flyer he'd stop, reload it, and then shoot it. If it didn't go right back into the same group as the rest it got tossed in his box he used for fouling shots.

 

[XSubSailor]

I use many types of dies...I currently load .380ACP, 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP for pistol and 30-06, .308Win, and .223Rem for rifle.

These are my observations for dies:

-I love Redding TiC sizing dies for the smooth finish they leave, and they're the only 9mm die I've found that formed a properly tapered 9mm case.
-I prefer Hornady seating dies because of the seating sleeve that properly aligns the bullet while seating, thus improving concentricity. They also allow you to disassemble the die for cleaning without removing from the press or LnL bushing (a particularly nice feature if you load lead bullets with lube that gunks them up). I also like that you can add a precision micrometer stem for about $15.
-I prefer Hornady locking rings and have them on all my dies...I hate Reddings's locking rings. If you use the setscrews to lock the setting, it galls the die threads permanently, and the knurled surface means you have to use pliers or channel-locks to loosen or tighten them.
-Lee's crimp dies work fine if you're loading jacketed rounds, but since, they resize the entire case, you lose the accuracy advantage of custom sized lead bullets.