"Democracies don't fear their own people"

[eriknemily]

I am guessing that he get's the earned income credit. I know guys who have a good few kids that get thousands back in taxes.

Karma guessed it. The earned income credit basic gives you a $1000 'credit' toward your tax bill every year. I have 4 kids so that $4k right there. Combine that with having an income under $40k, mortgage interest and work expenses I get thousands 'back' every year. Now my boss, who has no dependents and makes significantly more than me pays mucho in taxes every year. It's a screwed up system that really only screws the middles class, or whats left of it. The 'poor' think they deserve their 'refund' each year, the truly rich have enough money to find all the tax loopholes so they can get away with paying little to no taxes and the middle class foots the majority of the bill. If everybody paid their fair share (think Ron Paul's 'fair' tax) then the system would be equitable. Or, my friend suggested foregoing the incoming tax and going to a straight federal sales tax. If you don't spend your money you don't pay any taxes. Now that's my kind of tax system. Of course I still wouldn't pay and taxes but would no longer have you guys giving me a tax 'refund' every year

 

[bugeye]

When did the Romans become a Democracy? They were either a republic or a monarchy and sometimes both at once, but I know of no time that they were ever a democracy?

Best check your history again and understand fully what a democracy is. The Romans went from Republic (for centuries that saw them rise to world power) to Democracy to Monarchy/statist to complete failure. It is not possible to be a true Republic and Monarchy at the same time !

Could you be more specific?I don't think you could be less specific. I presumed you were talking about the Roman empire going up to the time of the Barbarian invasions? Also, I can't understand what you mean by democracy, can you give me an example state that meets your restrictions. I've got Ancient Athens down as a sort of republic for most of it's lifespan, so where was there a democracy, place and time, in your sense?

Also, you disagree that the inability to solve problems leads to the decline of states? If nothing else, failure of politcal systems, regardelss of the model they operate under, manifests itself in an inability to solve problems, right?

 

[bugeye]

So if the TOP 2% loose their wealth who then will pay taxes ? Do you own a house? You're wealthy! Do you own a car ? You're wealthy? Wealth does not mean that a person has a safe full of cash, again a house is a deposit of wealth as is a car or any other possession.
The idea that if someone has more wealth then another means they owe a higher percentage of taxes, or have got wealthy by ill means is perverse and corrupt. Does one over pay on their taxes and tell the government to keep it ? What about the person that has less then you, what are you doing for them ? Are you selling your home, your car, your possessions, the things you have worked to earn and turning over that monies so the less off can benefit from your labors your energy ?

Do you work for someone, by they're employing of others they are sharing wealth. The idea they should be penalized for this makes no sense and lacks all logical and reason of a free society.

Look, if we are going to make arguments about who should pay what, based on their wealth or income, then I made a good argument, that shows the ultras are undertaxed. Since taxes are paid, and they are paying less than their share, the middles are making it up. The problem is - the middles are an endangered species in America. The game has been tilted to benefit the ultras, after all they have the money and money = power, and what better manifestation of that then to stick someone else with the tab.

Bill Gates Senior is a spokesman for the type of thoughts I've been expressing here.

 

[Sete]

Look, if we are going to make arguments about who should pay what, based on their wealth or income, then I made a good argument, that shows the ultras are undertaxed. Since taxes are paid, and they are paying less than their share, the middles are making it up. The problem is - the middles are an endangered species in America. The game has been tilted to benefit the ultras, after all they have the money and money = power, and what better manifestation of that then to stick someone else with the tab.

Bill Gates Senior is a spokesman for the type of thoughts I've been expressing here.

Sorry but your argument was lousy, based on false premise, "they have more and its mine". It is an argument of Socialist, Marxist and even in the Socialist and Marxist society there are people at the top who are not subject to their vision of equality. In fact this way of life has a greater separation of class.

However if you want to make an argument of fair then how could one justify one group pays for something they don't receive and another group doesn't pay but receives ? Remember there is always someone less off then you and under your own logic you owe them ... This line of thinking is flawed and leads to Communism, Marxism.

Bill Gates senior is a nut job !!!

Under your vision what is the motivation to better ones self, to exceed, to improve and prosper if someone who did not earn it, who did not work for it, will simply take it because the one that works has to much ???

At what point does the producer quit producing, at this point whom will the system take from, and how long before the system fails ??? This is a system designed to fail !!!

 

[Sete]

bugeye; Said

"Could you be more specific?I don't think you could be less specific. I presumed you were talking about the Roman empire going up to the time of the Barbarian invasions? Also, I can't understand what you mean by democracy, can you give me an example state that meets your restrictions. I've got Ancient Athens down as a sort of republic for most of it's lifespan, so where was there a democracy, place and time, in your sense?"

I believe the lack of understanding comes from lack of knowledge as to what separates the different forms of government being discussed.

Famous quote: "Democracy is five wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch".

"Also, you disagree that the inability to solve problems leads to the decline of states? If nothing else, failure of political systems, regardless of the model they operate under, manifests itself in an inability to solve problems, right?"

That my friend is called bureaucracy, it is the game of politicians! No, I never made this statement !

 

[zeezee]

Sorry but your argument was lousy, based on false premise, "they have more and its mine". It is an argument of Socialist, Marxist and even in the Socialist and Marxist society there are people at the top who are not subject to their vision of equality. In fact this way of life has a greater separation of class.

However if you want to make an argument of fair then how could one justify one group pays for something they don't receive and another group doesn't pay but receives ? Remember there is always someone less off then you and under your own logic you owe them ... This line of thinking is flawed and leads to Communism, Marxism.

Bill Gates senior is a nut job !!!

Under your vision what is the motivation to better ones self, to exceed, to improve and prosper if someone who did not earn it, who did not work for it, will simply take it because the one that works has to much ???

At what point does the producer quit producing, at this point whom will the system take from, and how long before the system fails ??? This is a system designed to fail !!!

Good post
Most of the leftist that post here are socialist, plain & simple, they believe in the distribution of wealth and other socialist ideas and programs. But if we really wanted to be fair about taxes, implement a flat tax and make EVERYBODY PAY! If the "almost 50% who do not pay any income tax" were to pay there fair share . . . Heck, we would be out of debt in no time.

 

[eriknemily]

Good post
Most of the leftist that post here are socialist, plain & simple, they believe in the distribution of wealth and other socialist ideas and programs. But if we really wanted to be fair about taxes, implement a flat tax and make EVERYBODY PAY! If the "almost 50% who do not pay any income tax" were to pay there fair share . . . Heck, we would be out of debt in no time.

Don't forget the extremely wealthy who also evade taxes through various loopholes in tax code and investments. I have no problem with these people making the money that they do, I just think if Joe Blow who make $30000/ year has to pay say 15% in income tax then Mr Billionaire should also.

 

[Sete]

Don't forget the extremely wealthy who also evade taxes through various loopholes in tax code and investments. I have no problem with these people making the money that they do, I just think if Joe Blow who make $30000/ year has to pay say 15% in income tax then Mr Billionaire should also.

Check the tax structure, see who pays the most and who doesn't pay at all. I'm sure Mr. Billionaire would be happy with 15%, especially if everyone else was paying the same 15% ... Fact is blaming the rich does not better anyone and is wasting our time, better to spend the energy towards enriching ones self.

Does it not strike anyone as funny that the ones who politically point at and blame the rich, are themselves generally classified as rich ... I'm thankful there are rich, for rich/wealthy are the ones whom have invested (by providing the funds and opportunity) in ideas that have improved our lives, and in doing so have enabled others to increase their wealth and repeat the cycle !

 

[Stomper]

The definitions of who is rich also keep changing.

Once upon a time - $1,000,000.00/yr. = You're rich

Then around Clinton's reign - $500,000.00/yr. = You're rich

"Campaign" Obama - Individual's over $250,000.00/yr. = You're rich

"President" Obama - Households over $250,000.00/yr. = You're rich

Next stop - $100,000.00/yr. = You're rich (WOO HOO, I finally made the "big boy's club"!!!)


As long as they keep getting re-elected, they will continue to plunder what we EARN, to pay for their social programs that are designed to make the populace more depenant on them, and further ensconce themselves into positions of power.

What happens when there's nobody left with any income to tax to pay for all this crap? I'll tell you what.... SLAVERY!

 

[bugeye]

Sorry but your argument was lousy, based on false premise, "they have more and its mine". It is an argument of Socialist, Marxist and even in the Socialist and Marxist society there are people at the top who are not subject to their vision of equality. In fact this way of life has a greater separation of class.

However if you want to make an argument of fair then how could one justify one group pays for something they don't receive and another group doesn't pay but receives ? Remember there is always someone less off then you and under your own logic you owe them ... This line of thinking is flawed and leads to Communism, Marxism.

Bill Gates senior is a nut job !!!

Under your vision what is the motivation to better ones self, to exceed, to improve and prosper if someone who did not earn it, who did not work for it, will simply take it because the one that works has to much ???

At what point does the producer quit producing, at this point whom will the system take from, and how long before the system fails ??? This is a system designed to fail !!!

My argument had nothing to do with 'they have more and it is mine' so that is utter nonsense. My argument was based on fair shares, the facts of distribution of wealth vs. amounts paid in taxes.

Your next argument is about who pays what and who gets what from the tax system, and I have no control over that, I'm simply stuck paying more than my fair share because the ultra wealthy are not paying theirs. as far as the poor go - you can't squeeze blood from a tunip.

The slightly higher tax rates required to make the system fair aren't going to sink the ultras, sheesh. But what of the other side of this argument, how about people in the middle who don't have the necessary capital to better themselves because they are paying a disproportional share of the taxes? You can't have it only one way, this is a zero sum game!

At what point do people in the middle simply give up? Insurance, taxes, health care, education, and the decline of the value of our homes and our investments, it seems we are among a host of powerful beasts who have been given the right to feast upon our bones.

 

[Father of four]

I think all of you bickering are overlooking to biggest issue...

The wasteful spending of our tax money!

I would imagine that we as a nation would have more then enough taxes to take care of and pay for the necessary needed things our nation needed each year. More then enough!

We do not need to increase tax revenue but decrease the tax spending!

 

[Sete]

bugeye;said "My argument had nothing to do with 'they have more and it is mine' so that is utter nonsense. My argument was based on fair shares, the facts of distribution of wealth vs. amounts paid in taxes."

I'm sorry sometimes logic gets the better of me, I'm confused by your terms "fair" and "distribution of wealth vs. amounts paid in taxes." Your argument is again flawed, it is based on fair being a sliding scale. The rich already pay a higher percentage of tax then you do, this means they also pay much more money then you do. What you go on to say is richer then you should pay more so you don't have to pay as much. That means they have more and it is mine, ie if they pay more I get to keep mine, in other words you took it from them by making them pay instead of you!

"Your next argument is about who pays what and who gets what from the tax system, and I have no control over that, I'm simply stuck paying more than my fair share because the ultra wealthy are not paying theirs. as far as the poor go - you can't squeeze blood from a tunip."

So your dismissive of poor and condemning those that are not, yet telling me you pay more then your fair share, which is it? The so called rich pay more, plain and simple, both dollar and percentage wise, yet you feel you over pay and those richer then you should pay more so you can pay less ?

"The slightly higher tax rates required to make the system fair aren't going to sink the ultras, sheesh. But what of the other side of this argument, how about people in the middle who don't have the necessary capital to better themselves because they are paying a disproportional share of the taxes? You can't have it only one way, this is a zero sum game!"

Again I confused at your term fair - where is it fair that someone pays more ??? No, the higher taxes sink the lower and middle class. Tell me, when you have money in your pocket do you spend it ? If there is no money in your pocket what do you do then ? Regardless of financial class if you don't have money you cannot pass it along. Now I don't know about you but I always worked for people richer then me, I've never been employed by a poor person.

"At what point do people in the middle simply give up? Insurance, taxes, health care, education, and the decline of the value of our homes and our investments, it seems we are among a host of powerful beasts who have been given the right to feast upon our bones."

Ah, the "beasts", Who voted them into office and gives them their current lack of accountability, is your life or anyone you know life getting better ?
It's very simple, richer people then me own business' these people employ people like me an I assume you. If these people don't have money due to disproportionate taxes then you and I loose our jobs and we can't spread our wealth round. This means others loose their jobs due to you an I not having wealth to spread. You see these rich employers with out money they can not employ folks, and well you an I sink back to being poor, and the rich employer sinks back to middle class, loose their business and eventually join us in the basement ... That is not the kind of equality I'm interested in ...

 

[Karma]

What you guys are doing is comparing income taxes between the have's and have not's. That doesn't paint a very accurate picture.

You guys aren't taking into consideration any other taxes! How about the death tax? I know that there is no death tax this year because of a loophole, but normally that is not the case. If someone has 15 million dollars when they die, the government get's about half. They don't take anything under a certain amount, I can't remember right off the top of my head what it is, but the average person doesn't get taxed at all.

Next you can figure out property taxes. I have some good friends who invested their money very wisely. They now have a very good income coming in off of the hard work and investments they made. They recently bought a estate. Their property taxes are around 45k a year. That is one of the pieces of property they own.

The point is that simply adding up income taxes doesn't paint a very accurate picture. There is a lot of other stuff that is not accounted for.

 

[bugeye]

bugeye;said "My argument had nothing to do with 'they have more and it is mine' so that is utter nonsense. My argument was based on fair shares, the facts of distribution of wealth vs. amounts paid in taxes."

I'm sorry sometimes logic gets the better of me, I'm confused by your terms "fair" and "distribution of wealth vs. amounts paid in taxes." Your argument is again flawed, it is based on fair being a sliding scale. The rich already pay a higher percentage of tax then you do, this means they also pay much more money then you do. What you go on to say is richer then you should pay more so you don't have to pay as much. That means they have more and it is mine, ie if they pay more I get to keep mine, in other words you took it from them by making them pay instead of you!

"Your next argument is about who pays what and who gets what from the tax system, and I have no control over that, I'm simply stuck paying more than my fair share because the ultra wealthy are not paying theirs. as far as the poor go - you can't squeeze blood from a tunip."

So your dismissive of poor and condemning those that are not, yet telling me you pay more then your fair share, which is it? The so called rich pay more, plain and simple, both dollar and percentage wise, yet you feel you over pay and those richer then you should pay more so you can pay less ?

"The slightly higher tax rates required to make the system fair aren't going to sink the ultras, sheesh. But what of the other side of this argument, how about people in the middle who don't have the necessary capital to better themselves because they are paying a disproportional share of the taxes? You can't have it only one way, this is a zero sum game!"

Again I confused at your term fair - where is it fair that someone pays more ??? No, the higher taxes sink the lower and middle class. Tell me, when you have money in your pocket do you spend it ? If there is no money in your pocket what do you do then ? Regardless of financial class if you don't have money you cannot pass it along. Now I don't know about you but I always worked for people richer then me, I've never been employed by a poor person.

"At what point do people in the middle simply give up? Insurance, taxes, health care, education, and the decline of the value of our homes and our investments, it seems we are among a host of powerful beasts who have been given the right to feast upon our bones."

Ah, the "beasts", Who voted them into office and gives them their current lack of accountability, is your life or anyone you know life getting better ?
It's very simple, richer people then me own business' these people employ people like me an I assume you. If these people don't have money due to disproportionate taxes then you and I loose our jobs and we can't spread our wealth round. This means others loose their jobs due to you an I not having wealth to spread. You see these rich employers with out money they can not employ folks, and well you an I sink back to being poor, and the rich employer sinks back to middle class, loose their business and eventually join us in the basement ... That is not the kind of equality I'm interested in ...

Your failure to understand my argument is your fault, not mine. Percentages mean very little when dealing with taxes on ultras as they have clever accountants and dozens of dodges, and you know this. This is why I based my argument on wealth and not income.

Look, It is obvious you adore the rich and worship them as gods. I have no desire to discuss your religion, I skip parables and look only at what is happening in general.

The simple fact is that based on wealth, I as a middle class person pay a much higher percentage in taxes then do the ubbers. The middle class and middle class wealth is in decline and ubber wealth is increasing and this has been going on for decades. America was not originated to be an aristocracy of money, and I oppose it becomming one.

I could take you one point by point, and show that the ubbers benefit far more from cheap labor and the illegals than I have, that they use far more governement services than I do, and that they create, either directly, or via their investments, far more problems than I do, but what's the point, this just takes away from the basic argument about wealth and taxes, and that is all we need to really see how the table is tilted. It has become tilted to benefit the ubbers because they have the money and money = power. There is nothing radical about this, this is how it has been done in every capitalist pseudo democracy since ancient Athens. What was once radical was America, because it was conceived as a meritocracy, and not an aristocrisy of money. That country no longer exists, and people like you are happy about it.

 

[Sete]

Your failure to understand my argument is your fault, not mine. Percentages mean very little when dealing with taxes on ultras as they have clever accountants and dozens of dodges, and you know this. This is why I based my argument on wealth and not income.

Look, It is obvious you adore the rich and worship them as gods. I have no desire to discuss your religion, I skip parables and look only at what is happening in general.

I understand your argument, however it is based on a false premise and continuing to pursue discussion based on false hood is mute. Percentages mean everything in this case because more is more no matter how you wish to spin it, you are wrong.

Resorting to attacking me now, when all else fails change the subject, lie an attack ... Logic and truth is not something you can hide from. We are a Republic not a Democracy, learn the difference!

To me, you could be rich, just saying ... !

 

[bugeye]

Your failure to understand my argument is your fault, not mine. Percentages mean very little when dealing with taxes on ultras as they have clever accountants and dozens of dodges, and you know this. This is why I based my argument on wealth and not income.

Look, It is obvious you adore the rich and worship them as gods. I have no desire to discuss your religion, I skip parables and look only at what is happening in general.

I understand your argument, however it is based on a false premise and continuing to pursue discussion based on false hood is mute. Percentages mean everything in this case because more is more no matter how you wish to spin it, you are wrong.

Resorting to attacking me now, when all else fails change the subject, lie an attack ... Logic and truth is not something you can hide from. We are a Republic not a Democracy, learn the difference!

To me, you could be rich, just saying ... !

Yes, I'm wrong because you say so and your right because you have failed to make even one single - clear - fact driven argument. Yeah sure, buddy! So, can you let the cat out of the bag and tell me my 'false premise' straight? Or must I hear you go on about the poor rich, and how they manage to provide jobs for us out of the kindness of their hearts, sheesh! I don't know about you buddy but I work for a living and I resent being ripped off by powerful vested interests in a system that favors the ubbers to such and extent that only a blind guy who lives in a vault could miss it.

I'll just give you one example, every month my family, and it's employers, pay over a thousand dollars in in health insurance premiums, and $250 of that supports nothing but the massive inefficiency of just the insurance companies (not the providers), they have been given the right to 'suck our blood' to a phenominal extent considering the simple - necessary utility they should be providing! What's nearly as bad is that they have been allowed to structure the system of health care delivery, making it more inefficient, charging the uninsureds more than the insureds, and preventing the delivery of cost effective services such as direct nursing services and antibiotics at the drug store. Where is the low cost competition that a free market system should provide? There is none, because the players have consolidated, split up the pie and agreed to overcharge. Now who is most benefited from this crazy system? This is just one more hidden tax on the middle, another form of corporate welfare, and these bozos took about a hundred million of their 'excess' money from overcharging and used it to buy influence in congress during the health care reform bill to make sure that they would be given the divine right to rip us off for all eternity.

My family is paying a heck of a lot more for corporate welfare than for the other kind. This example is one of the worst but there are many more. Overhead on car insurance if about 50%, there is another nice little tap for the ubbers! And if you have a claim and its not even your fault they will nickle and dime you and make you go through heck, sheesh!

 

[Sete]

bugeye;254489

Yes, I'm wrong because you say so and your right because you have failed to make even one single - clear - fact driven argument. Yeah sure, buddy! So, can you let the cat out of the bag and tell me my 'false premise' straight?

No, I have made many clear factual points, they just aren't what you wish to hear. Your false premise is that it is all the rich peoples fault and that they have wronged you. You've been sold and bought a party line designed to divide Americans. Fact is the party in control is the tax and spend party, you've swallowed their argument. Mean while they are again increasing your taxes while pointing at the other guy and you're looking at where they are pointing.

Or must I hear you go on about the poor rich, and how they manage to provide jobs for us out of the kindness of their hearts, sheesh!

So don't work for them, their plenty of people out of work that will be happy to take your job! Glade you agree they provide jobs, see a factual point I made you did not wish to hear.

I don't know about you buddy but I work for a living and I resent being ripped off by powerful vested interests in a system that favors the ubbers to such and extent that only a blind guy who lives in a vault could miss it.

I will agree we get ripped off, but it's not the rich that doing it. Sure the argument is presented to look that way but let us be serious. Do you really believe that the multi millionaire pro sport players are out to get you, really. The guys playing for the Trail Blazers get together and talk about ways to increase your taxes ?

I'll just give you one example, every month my family, and it's employers, pay over a thousand dollars in in health insurance premiums, and $250 of that supports nothing but the massive inefficiency of just the insurance companies (not the providers), they have been given the right to 'suck our blood' to a phenominal extent considering the simple - necessary utility they should be providing! What's nearly as bad is that they have been allowed to structure the system of health care delivery, making it more inefficient, charging the uninsureds more than the insureds, and preventing the delivery of cost effective services such as direct nursing services and antibiotics at the drug store. Where is the low cost competition that a free market system should provide? There is none, because the players have consolidated, split up the pie and agreed to overcharge. Now who is most benefited from this crazy system? This is just one more hidden tax on the middle, another form of corporate welfare, and these bozos took about a hundred million of their 'excess' money from overcharging and used it to buy influence in congress during the health care reform bill to make sure that they would be given the divine right to rip us off for all eternity.

You know, only now with the current regime and laws they forced through are you required to have health insurance or else be penalized. I haven't had insurance for years, reason being it was to expensive. Recently I went the Dr paid out of my pocket for the office visit and then to the Pharmacy for prescriptions, total cost $120, less then my monthly insurance premium was, let alone the copays. I have consider getting some kind of catastrophic, which would be a good idea. I broke my wrist once, x-ray cast and meds, less then $250 ...

My family is paying a heck of a lot more for corporate welfare than for the other kind. This example is one of the worst but there are many more. Overhead on car insurance if about 50%, there is another nice little tap for the ubbers! And if you have a claim and its not even your fault they will nickle and dime you and make you go through heck, sheesh![/QUOTE]

I hit a deer 4th July weekend, I have car insurance with full coverage and no deductible, car is being fixed without hassle and no it will not effect my rates, 1st accident in years ... Review your policy and shop around, oh and be sure to drive safely and be alert. Somehow I managed to drop "rental" coverage so no rental car - worth the $2 a month IMO, needless to say its back on the policy now... I think insurance is out of control too, don't like when they are raising rates then turn around and build stadiums! Look into a co-op. Find an insurance broker and go talk with him about it. Rural farm communities have these and rates usually are much better, find out if you are able to join one.

Look most all of us agree taxes are out of control, the system is and has been manipulated to bleed us of our earnings. All I'm saying is you're blaming the wrong people. I know many people that have a lot of money, and honestly they are out of touch politically, they have to much other things on their plate. Yeah we are screwed, by lobbyist, so get active and tell your representatives to stop lobbyist. All they cause is taxes to go up so that money can be taken from one group to the benefit of another, it's a kind of Robin Hood complex going on. Vote in people that are against lobbyist, people that will work to lower your taxes, check the folks out and hold them accountable when they get elected.

 

[Trlsmn]

Closed, Thread no longer about 2nd amendment politics.