Continuum of force suggestions.

[Flopsweat]

Right. The generalization that big predators are usually more dangerous to us than small ones is basically correct. More humans get killed by bears than by minks, even though minks have a much worse attitude. But poisonous snakes are an exception. Yet we seem to have built in instincts that cover the snake exception too. Humans tend to be afraid of snakes, big or little. Whether that fear was instinctive or just very easily learned wasn't settled the last I read anything about it. Most snakes aren't poisonous, but its safer to avoid all of them until you learn the details than to do the opposite. Chimps will throw rocks at snakes and try to hit them with sticks.

For millennia, more of those with an aversion to snakes survived long enough to procreate than those without.

 

[Knobgoblin]

For millennia, more of those with an aversion to snakes survived long enough to procreate than those without.

And now we have Ophidicism.

The wheel always comes back around.

 

[Flopsweat]

And now we have Ophidicism.

The wheel always comes back around.

I'm going to guess that's been around a long time.

 

[Knobgoblin]

I'm going to guess that's been around a long time.

Centuries

 

[Glockguy97]

so, if you're set on carrying a less lethal, I would look at something like the Kimber pepper blaster or Fox Labs OC spray. I'd stay away from taser.

Age and ability is a big part of understanding deadly force and justification. If you were 20 and shot another 20 year old kid during a fight, that would be more heavily scrutinized. If you're an average 60+ year old person getting jumped by a strung up 20/30yr old kid, you'd be a lot more justified in using deadly force because that person could literally kill you with their bear hands.

I would say you should look into the Oregon Revised Statue regarding Use of force. There are circumstances where you can use deadly
Force, and there are circumstances where you can't.

With age comes wisdom, and your best bet might be brushing up on the actual ORS and case law .

Situational awareness is a bit part of this discussion and you should weigh that with an honest account of your abilities given your age (however hold you may be).

IANAL and can not give you legal advice.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.kill you with their bear hands..

Beer hands are not to be underestimated either.

 

[Flopsweat]

Beer hands are not to be underestimated either.

It's the crack hands that - oh, no, nevermind.

 

[OldBroad44]

Beer hands are not to be underestimated either.

Right! When someone comes at you with ill intent, hand them a beer. Actually works best on dogs. If your neighbor has a fenced dog that runs at the fence barking and acting like it would love to kill you every time you walk by, start taking meat scraps or bone gifts with you. Pretty soon the dog will be running to the fence and greeting you eagerly. This can really PO people who pride themselves on their fierce watchdogs.

 

[Flopsweat]

Right! When someone comes at you with ill intent, hand them a beer.

You know, that actually works sometimes.

 

[Olderguy]

Ok, I am getting older and my old continuum of force hierarchy is getting less and less viable. In my younger days it was pretty simple; I carried a firearm for lethal force applications and for everything below that I could rely on my mass, strength and skills to control and deescalate a situation. I used to be decently far out on the physical capability bell curve so I never felt like I was leaving myself too much of a gap in capability. Nowadays, however, I am seeing more and more young bucks who would give me pause. It is not so bad that I feel like I am sitting below my comfort threshold, but I am moving in that direction, and I do not foresee moving back up that bell curve in the future.

So this is where the question comes in; what modern tech fits into my comfort threshold for less/non-lethal continuum of force options? Ye Oldyn Day options for things like tasers or pepper spray were decidedly less than optimal from my perspective. My benchmark for effectiveness was me, and being the brain dead and mostly numb monster that I am, the current offerings of the day -at best- merely made me more annoyed and less safe in practice sessions. Dust me with some spicy air freshener? My next grapple/jab/thrust was going to be a bit less accurate but a whole lot more irritated. Hit me with a consumer taser/stun stick or whatever? That tickles, stop it. I was just no all that impressed with anything out there.

But there is *ahem* a decade of improvement since I last gave this market space a good look (we are rounding here, don't ask for details). I am wondering if there is some spicy air fresheners or sparky light shows that would actually give some old b@astard of a bear actual pause to think "yeah, maybe I do actually want to be somewhere else right about now". We have known for ages that there are people resistant to these methods, so surely someone would have figure out a weakness to exploit and then package that exploit into a nice, easy to carry package? I am leery of products that simply state "we have 10 billion more spicy units/shocky sparks/ouch factors than the next leading brand!" I used to eat that stuff for dares when I was young and stupid, I am not sure if the same thing only more is really going to have that much of an impact.

Or maybe I have been thinking about this all wrong for years, and the scale should not be to make the angry, nearly immune old bear go away, but rather make the smelly bum you really don't want to get in a grapple with rethink his aggressive begging. I am not so sure of that, but I could use some convincing if so. What are ya'lls thoughts on the matter? Anything out there that is really good and worth keeping in a pocket? Or should I just get the thing with the biggest number on the package and call it good enough?

Welcome to old age.

 

[lucusloc]

Welcome to old age.

bubblegum you bubblegum. Happy to be here.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Attitude is often the difference between being a victim and not.

 

[RVTECH]

Attitude is often the difference between being a victim and not.

Exactly - AND :

"Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see" - Mark Twain

 

[Certaindeaf]

Exactly - AND :

"Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see" - Mark Twain

Don't forget,

"Violence is the language which the ignant can feel and remember" - Me





Lulz

 

[Member 53328]

If you're going to carry OC I'd highly suggest you have someone spray you with it before you apply it in the real world.

Otherwise you may be in for a real treat.

 

[lucusloc]

If you're going to carry OC I'd highly suggest you have someone spray you with it before you apply it in the real world.

Otherwise you may be in for a real treat.

That was the entire impetus for this thread; I have been sprayed with these before. I consider them. . . lets call it "tasty but ineffective". I was wondering if newer stuff was more effective. The POM stuff comes in bulk packs, I may get one and try it out to see if my opinion has changed.

 

[Member 53328]

That was the entire impetus for this thread; I have been sprayed with these before. I consider them. . . lets call it "tasty but ineffective". I was wondering if newer stuff was more effective. The POM stuff comes in bulk packs, I may get one and try it out to see if my opinion has changed.

It can really depend on person to person too. Generally speaking fair skinned/very pale people it works very well. Other individuals not so much.

A lot like pressure points/joint manipulation. Very effective on some. Others it has little to no effect.

If you spray someone there is a very high likelihood that you'll be contaminated as well. Whether it be wind/contact/second hand transfer/etc. that's why I advise people who carry it to spray themselves as well. That way you know how it affects you personally and be able to push through it and fight. If you can't do that you may wanna leave it at home.

I don't put a ton of faith in non-lethal simply cause humanity is so vastly different and the same product could have great to minimal effect.

Have a plan B. Be ready to go to plan B.

 

[Alexx1401]

That was the entire impetus for this thread; I have been sprayed with these before. I consider them. . . lets call it "tasty but ineffective". I was wondering if newer stuff was more effective. The POM stuff comes in bulk packs, I may get one and try it out to see if my opinion has changed.

The stuff is VERY hit and miss. I don't care what brand name it has on it. At times it will make a large person drop to the ground screaming. At times it will make someone attack you. One of those better than nothing things. One thing I have found its very good for is dogs. Have used it a few times and on K9's its never failed to make an impression. Last time was long back when moron across the street from me had a pit that was always running loose. See it in my front yard one morning so I stepped out to yell at it to get. It charged me, I sprayed it, the dog set the road on fire getting back to its own yard. For years after that if I saw it in my yard all I had to do was open my door and it beat feet home again. I HATE having to hurt a dog because the owner is a moron so this stuff is great. No real harm to the dog but seems to get their attention.

 

[RVTECH]

That was the entire impetus for this thread;

With all due respect, I certainly did not interpret pepper spray as the cornerstone or 'impetus' as you say, for this thread.

 

[thekingoftroy]

Exposing yourself to pepper spray to see how you react after getting exposed to it is the only valid reason for getting sprayed with it. As stated above several times some people are able to fight through it (especially those that have been in prison/jail and have been exposed before).

I have used pepper spray on both dogs and humans (dogs 100% effective, humans not as effective). Also used the taser on multiple people, also not 100% effective.

Law Enforcement stopped teaching "force continuum's" in a stair step model awhile back because in court it implies that you have to stair step your response while in actuality you may jump from verbal commands straight to force. The defense and civil law suit attorneys were arguing that other means should have been attempted prior to the use of deadly force (which isn't always practical when faced with a rapidly evolving or escalating situation).

I would be careful about calling it a continuum when the law is concerned. The question will come up "what did you do to de-escalate or what less lethal option did you use?" Remember if the force is justified it doesn't matter what the tool is that is used.

My two cents.