National Constructive Possession Brace vs Stock

[arakboss]

Thompson /Center vs US case says you can have the short barrel, the pistol grip stock/lower component, 16+ barrel, and shoulder stock lower component all together and its not constructive possession.
Pistol to rifle then rifle to pistol=OK as long as you don't do the SBR configuration.

Rifle to pistol =not OK because "once a rifle, always a rifle".

Warning. long video with Mark Smith and the lawyer who won that particular case against the ATF in front of SCOTUS.

Interesting point, cannot use Chevron Deference when it's a rule/regulation with criminal penalties. Courts must use Rule of Lenity.

Edit.

Lawyer also point out that rifle definitions from both NFA and GCA do not include "parts that can be readily put together to make a rifle" like the definitions for machine guns and silencers; but that has been how the Courts and ATF interpreted to be "consistent " and hence constructive possession.

Very good point.

 

[saxon]

this has been argued to death has it not? regardless no matter what the ATF says (boot lace is an MG ergo your all guilty of constructive intent)
the LAW and court case clearly state it is not constructive intent.

 

[arakboss]

Did not watch any of the vids, but if you have possession of a pistol and a stock/brace for that pistol, and the ATF/courts consider the brace to be a stock, then that is constructive possession regardless of where you store the stock. Same goes with a short barreled upper and a stocked lower. If it is in your possession, it is in your possession, even if the two items are stored a thousand miles apart.

Relying on someone in the government saying "don't worry, trust us, we won't prosecute you for this" is foolish. That isn't how court trials interpret the law - they go by the law, not something some government official said in a YT vid.

That raises the question of whether possession of a short barrel by itself and other rifles would be constructive possession. The entire theory is goofy.


As @CamoDeafie reminded us, the T/C case provided guidance on this issue.

but the Court of Appeals reversed, holding that a short-barreled rifle "actually must be assembled" in order to be "made" within the NFA's meaning.


source: https://casetext.com/case/united-states-v-thompsoncenter-arms-co


This is probably why no one gets charged for constructive possession of SBR.


Edit: Imagine how many constructive possession cases could be brought against the hundreds of stores who maintain rifle stocks, short barrels and other parts necessary to build an SBR in the same inventory.

 

[arakboss]

Steven Dettelbach with his buddies having a day at the spa while discussing constructive possession of SBRs.

 

[monkeybutler]

What if you hid the brace in your butt? Is it really in your possession or control at that point? What if you are old and incontinent? Butt brace blowout? Pack it up with gauze? How much fiber have you been eatiing?

 

[arakboss]

This is probably the best video I have seen on the topic. Based on his advice I would feel comfortable with keeping stocks/braces at the same location if I had sufficient parts to build legal firearms from them.

If you owned a stock or brace and the only firearm you possessed was a short barreled firearm that required the stock/brace to operate, that would likely be a problem.

 

[wired]

Nothing new. It only becomes an issue when you do something stupid like sell a "pistol" and the brace/stock ( same thing ) at the same time. People have gone to jail for that.

 

[The Heretic]

That raises the question of whether possession of a short barrel by itself and other rifles would be constructive possession. The entire theory is goofy.

I practice my separation of items based on that "theory" because people have gone to prison by ignoring it.

I bought a Ruger 10/22 Charger barrel so that I can use it with an integral suppressor on a 10/22 rifle. I don't have a Charger, so I let my kids store it. They do not have any rifles it will fit on, but I do - so since they possess it and I do not, I am legally fine. When I get around to sending it in to have it made into a stamped integral 16" suppressor barrel, then I will take possession of it.

I have a few braces, but no pistols or short barrel uppers - so I am fine.

 

[RX-79G]

Perhaps stating the obvious:

If you have an AR pistol, and a 16" barreled upper, AND a stock - if you keep them all together like the T/C court case that would show your intent to assemble as a rifle, not an SBR.

 

[arakboss]

Perhaps stating the obvious:

If you have an AR pistol, and a 16" barreled upper, AND a stock - if you keep them all together like the T/C court case that would show your intent to assemble as a rifle, not an SBR.

I will make sure I have more rifle barrels than stocks and I should be in the clear

 

[Alexx1401]

I will make sure I have more rifle barrels than stocks and I should be in the clear

Other than in fantasy land you are fine with anything you have unless you work real hard to get the feds attention. NO ONE gets jailed over this theory. The few cases where some idiot gets in trouble its because they made a point of poking the feds over and over till they got the attention they wished for. If they get the feds showing up and the feds have a hard time making a case, or they wish to stack charges? They will charge the intent. How many times have the feds showed up at your door to date? None? Yet you think they are going to now? If so why? If you want them to do so you will have to work at it. It is amazing how many people seem to lay awake at night waiting for them to knock on the door.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Other than in fantasy land you are fine with anything you have unless you work real hard to get the feds attention. NO ONE gets jailed over this theory. The few cases where some idiot gets in trouble its because they made a point of poking the feds over and over till they got the attention they wished for. If they get the feds showing up and the feds have a hard time making a case, or they wish to stack charges? They will charge the intent. How many times have the feds showed up at your door to date? None? Yet you think they are going to now? If so why? If you want them to do so you will have to work at it. It is amazing how many people seem to lay awake at night waiting for them to knock on the door.

There have been members on NWFA who have had atf visit their house to confiscate triggers. I've heard of individuals being chased down for solvent traps, including atf agents driving 4.5 hours one way from the persons home to where he was at at the time. So it does happen.

As wired said atf most often acts as a buyer and tries to catch someone in an illegal sale. For example a pistol and brace in the same box.

 

[Alexx1401]

There have been members on NWFA who have had atf visit their house to confiscate triggers. I've heard of individuals being chased down for solvent traps, including atf agents driving 4.5 hours one way from the persons home to where he was at at the time. So it does happen.

As wired said atf most often acts as a buyer and tries to catch someone in an illegal sale. For example a pistol and brace in the same box.

As I said you have to work at it. If the fantasy does the thrill for you? Hey lay awake waiting for that knock.

 

[wired]

SBR convictions are almost always at the state level and are difficult to find. Everyone forgets that states have gun laws too. The ATF doesn't run them through justice often. It does happen. This is the most prominent case I know of where yep, dude got caught selling all the stuff in a box...

Florida Man Arrested for Constructive Possession of an SBR

I have recently blogged about the issue of constructive possession of NFA firearms in my article NFA and Constructive Possession: Myth or Reality?. On August 27, 2009, Jesus Amador, Jr., was arrest…

blog.princelaw.com

 

[Alexx1401]

SBR convictions are almost always at the state level and are difficult to find. Everyone forgets that states have gun laws too. The ATF doesn't run them through justice often. It does happen. This is the most prominent case I know of where yep, dude got caught selling all the stuff in a box...

Florida Man Arrested for Constructive Possession of an SBR

I have recently blogged about the issue of constructive possession of NFA firearms in my article NFA and Constructive Possession: Myth or Reality?. On August 27, 2009, Jesus Amador, Jr., was arrest…

blog.princelaw.com

Ran an ad on Craigs list for it all. Then cries when he gets jammed up.
The people here having fantasies of the feds coming to their door? This is how its done. Run some ads for stuff like this and you may get that knock at the door so you can proudly tell all here it happened to you.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Personally I would not want to be at the mercy of a state patrolman or other enforcement person having the "discretion" to do something. I know of at least one state patrolman who will literally write people up for anything he possibly can and he is well known for it in his area. The a$$ wipe seems to take pride in it. All it takes is someone on a crusade and the penalties, or even fighting it in court, can be very harsh. Imo it's better to be smart about it and not be at the mercy of LEO "discretion".

 

[Camelfilter]

.

SBR convictions are almost always at the state level and are difficult to find. Everyone forgets that states have gun laws too. The ATF doesn't run them through justice often. It does happen. This is the most prominent case I know of where yep, dude got caught selling all the stuff in a box...

Florida Man Arrested for Constructive Possession of an SBR

I have recently blogged about the issue of constructive possession of NFA firearms in my article NFA and Constructive Possession: Myth or Reality?. On August 27, 2009, Jesus Amador, Jr., was arrest…

blog.princelaw.com

...and apparently acquited of all charges.

 

[Alexx1401]

...and apparently acquited of all charges.

Many who get in a jam like this will eventually win but, have to wonder was it worth it? An amazing number of people seem to like to poke the bear like this. Even if they do not get a conviction seems like it could not have been nearly as much fun as they thought it would be

 

[The Heretic]

Many who get in a jam like this will eventually win but, have to wonder was it worth it? An amazing number of people seem to like to poke the bear like this. Even if they do not get a conviction seems like it could not have been nearly as much fun as they thought it would be

Yup - you might win, but the gov almost always does not pay your lawyer/court fees when it loses (it might be nice if that was possible).

 

[Flopsweat]

As long as all parts in your possession, as worded in the TC decision, "can be assembled into a legal firearm", and they aren't stored in a manner that strongly implies that you're going to make an illegal gun, it seems to me that you're fine. That's just my take.