Civility and Discipline

[Bob D]

Watching the gun debate unfold between the extremist camps is like listening to a heroin addict and a faith healer debate drug policy.

 

[WhyteCheddar]

Here is the problem I have with the 'Liberals who support 2A' crowd.
Essentially they are supporting and strengthening the very politicians who are the biggest danger to our 2A rights. Yet they want to act like 2A support and liberal politics go together like chocolate and peanut butter.
I am for being civil to a point, but they have yet to demonstrate to me that their ideology is not damaging to what I hold in reverence.

 

[Bob D]

Here is the problem I have with the 'Liberals who support 2A' crowd.
Essentially they are supporting and strengthening the very politicians who are the biggest danger to our 2A rights. Yet they want to act like 2A support and liberal politics go together like chocolate and peanut butter.
I am for being civil to a point, but they have yet to demonstrate to me that their ideology is not damaging to what I hold in reverence.

I can understand that. It's kind of like a conservative who holds holds gay rights in reverence, I'd imagine. They'd be stuck without a good political choice.

If you require your 2A supporters to believe so fervently in the 2nd amendment that they forsake all their other beliefs, then I suppose no liberal will ever fit your bill, but neither will most moderates from either side of that spectrum, and that doesn't bode well for those of us that care about our gun rights.

First of all, I am not a liberal. I've only ever voted for one democrat, and that was a small state position. Now that gun control is coming up again, I see more threat to the 2nd than I have any time since 2000. Since it wasn't being threatened, I had no problem voting for who I saw fit on other issues. Now, of course, gun rights are going to take a more active role in my voting deliberations.

What a liberal 2A supporter can do, which helps us greatly, is to spread that ideology among their peers, introducing guns to a demographic that would never be swayed by arguments from the right.

 

[BoonDocks36]

It's far more about just owning a gun, and stating, "I own a gun, therefore I am..." And, that I believe is what is the undertone of any discussion about gun ownership, and liberty.

While I agree with your intent towards 2A, that does not change post #1's developing the thread.

Personally, I find, when I "strap on" a hand gun, my politeness becomes more "there", in my awareness, than if I am not carrying. YMMV.

I also see a HUGE difference in attitudes from locations within a city... Not entering a HATE FREE zone in Eugene, because of the immense HATRED within there!

(I have come F2F with the Mayor {who flies a broom} of Eugene, whose hatred of my presense was so Obvious, and me, just wearing a symbol of my "office" (FYI, I am a Pastor) gee, No Hate here, right?

And she was protected by the Senior LEO of Eugene.

Civility & Discipline.... the First take a huge level of the Second word, and that is how shooting is: Discipline provides accuracy.

philip in the Boondocks on HWY 36...

 

[BoonDocks36]

Gee davemata, how civilly creative you were in trying to be offensive...

However, I have been on many Forums prior to this one, and I have never been a Moderator. I have seen a lot of bait cast out, and yours was easily seen as such, Practice is your friend, in fire arms accuracy, and Offending someone, you need more practice in one of them...

Boondocks36 - when is your junior hall monitor sash coming in the mail? Anytime, right?

philip,

In the Boondocks, life is nice, all day long...

 

[DireWolf]

Here is the problem I have with the 'Liberals who support 2A' crowd.
Essentially they are supporting and strengthening the very politicians who are the biggest danger to our 2A rights. Yet they want to act like 2A support and liberal politics go together like chocolate and peanut butter.
I am for being civil to a point, but they have yet to demonstrate to me that their ideology is not damaging to what I hold in reverence.

This post makes the error in logic that "Liberal" ideology equates with "supporting and strengthening the very politicians who are the biggest danger to our 2A rights".

Broad brushes suck, because - well, they are broad.

 

[Suge206]

It seems like the community litmus test on this forum for supporting the 2a is whether you are willing to state on the internet here and now that if there ever were to be any additional restrictions added to gun rights that you are willing to die on the spot and anybody not willing to do the same is a traitor.

The anti-statist construct that you guys espouse is just too weird for me to debate. I don't get it. Sounds like angry, delusional man-child stuff to me. You want everything to be voluntary? Sounds feasible....

 

[Suge206]

I don't need to spell out where I cam from that if you've read this thread.

I'm not going to read the books but I will take a look at them on the net and see what I find.

 

[WhyteCheddar]

This post makes the error in logic that "Liberal" ideology equates with "supporting and strengthening the very politicians who are the biggest danger to our 2A rights".

Broad brushes suck, because - well, they are broad.

Your response has an error in logic because you put forth the idea that a broad brush is never accurate.
I disagree. A broad brush is not always wrongly applied. A person who claims to be pro 2A yet solely votes for anti 2A candidates is in fact contributing to our downfall.

 

[Suge206]

Ughh listening to Levin talk about this book is as ridiculous as reading this forum. its sort of makes sense now.

lol what a load of crap. change is radical innovation that destroys society? ugh.. I can't even begin to go line for line with his crap.

lol they'll destroy your humanity!

 

[Suge206]

I won't read it because I don't have time. I run a business and a household and have fun hobbies. I did watch some yewtubes to get the gist. He's a fear monger that makes asinine straw-man arguments posed as fact (rings a bell...) The statist wants to destroy America! Who the eff is a statist? I'm 37 yrs old and have never even heard the term before this week and I follow politics fairly closely dependent on whats going on at the moment and my level of burnout.

People are people and we all basically want to be left alone as much as possible and live in a fair and just society. We just don't all agree on how to do that. You can't have an honest debate if you paint others to be something they aren't before you even ask them what they are.

 

[Suge206]

the answer is that you've been sold a sensationalized, fictional tale very loosely based some actual historcal events mostly taken out of context mixed with some religious dogma added in with the sole intent of selling more books, imo

but maybe it's that im just too young to understand..... maybe

 

[WhyteCheddar]

Duplicate

 

[WhyteCheddar]

the answer is that you've been sold a sensationalized, fictional tale very loosely based some actual historcal events mostly taken out of context mixed with some religious dogma added in with the sole intent of selling more books, imo

but maybe it's that im just too young to understand..... maybe

If you don't read it, you don't have the context. Context is everything in a back and forth like this. There is neither the time, nor space to provide that context here.
So, if you are basing your perspective on sound bites from youtube then you are dismissing out of hand and falling into the trap the liberal gun owners here/OP are discussing.

 

[Rotty]

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately most people's opinion is shaped by who screams louder. Our voices must be that of calm assusrance. Educate people, don't try to indoctrinte. Converse, don't compete. And most importantly; don't try to convince someone who has thier mind made up - it will be a sad and frustrating exercise. People like Ted Nugent and James Yeager cannot be the faces of rational, law abiding gun owners - unfortunately they are the ones getting the airtime.

I agree that we shouldn't have to scream and shout to be heard. Why do you think Ted Nugent and James Jaeger are getting noticed. If you've ever set foot in a court room just watch the antics that go on. Lots of show boating to evoke an emotional response as they present their case. Ted Nugent is clearly getting noticed. The question is, is he getting the desired response. People are bound to be offended no matter what regardless of the facts. They allow the antics displayed by those showboating to justify their emotional response whether that supports or hurts the outcome.

 

[Bob D]

Posting "you haven't read this book, therefore you don't know" arguments is for folks who can't or won't explain those arguments in their own words. I don't have time for an entire book. I've got to finish Game of Thrones, or my wife will be ruining it for me for the next year. Give me some bullet points, and frame it in a way that I won't just laugh it off. I'm a moderate. I don't orgasm over the same money shots that you do.

One picks up where the last left off.

 

[DireWolf]

Posting "you haven't read this book, therefore you don't know" arguments is for folks who can't or won't explain those arguments in their own words. I don't have time for an entire book. I've got to finish Game of Thrones, or my wife will be ruining it for me for the next year. Give me some bullet points, and frame it in a way that I won't just laugh it off. I'm a moderate. I don't orgasm over the same money shots that you do.

One picks up where the last left off.

Exactly.

The truth is simple.

 

[RB87]

Here's your civility:

MSNBC: Um, we can?t reach a conclusion about whether the Sandy Hook dad was ?heckled? or not « Hot Air

Feel free to search for more sources on this story or the raw video from the testimony.

 

[WhyteCheddar]

Posting "you haven't read this book, therefore you don't know" arguments is for folks who can't or won't explain those arguments in their own words. I don't have time for an entire book. I've got to finish Game of Thrones, or my wife will be ruining it for me for the next year. Give me some bullet points, and frame it in a way that I won't just laugh it off. I'm a moderate. I don't orgasm over the same money shots that you do.

One picks up where the last left off.

This was the most simplistic surrender monkey response I have seen in a while.
Refusing to read the debated book, or even a few chapters is the least intellectual lame position you have held here yet (among several).
I won't do your research for you. And if you don't have time, then perhaps the time you spend here would be better spent preparing for future posts.
The fact that you use proper language and frame your responses in a refined format don't cover up the holes in your position(s).

I would add that you have attacked Dmancornell's delivery here. While I have had my own disagreements with him on this forum, I am fine with how he phrases his point here and he is exactly right. You are clearly out thought on the subject and instead of sticking to the point, resorted to attacking his delivery.
His anti statist position is clear, logical and accurate.

 

[davemata]

Since you're trying to explain, to liberals, what liberals believe in, having not ever been one yourself, it's more like explaining a 26-hour work week and ten weeks vacation to someone in France, but that comparison also breaks down fairly quickly.

You make no sense, and you're still not trying to become part of the solution.

I had your sickness once. Then I grew up and became a contributing member of society. I quickly realized how much contributors get used by liberal takers. You all advocate for frilly feel good things, I know, I was right there with the rest of you, I was right there protesting war, and fighting to protect the first amendment rights of people who want to express themselves. What I learned quickly, is that hidden in what you advocate is a desire for the state to enforce your every whim. To use the tip of the state's spear to come to bear against anyone who didn't agree with you. You people are worse than commies, you come with open arms and false pretenses of friendship, when what you really want is weakness, pervasive fear, and emotion to win out over intelligence, morality, and personal responsibility.

Don't tell me what I have and have not been. I had your cancer, I removed it. If more liberals and conservatives got their acts together, we'd all be in a better place. Ya'll are the same, R and D, and it's pathetic. The whole concept of a pro-2A liberal is amusing, they call for state control on one side, but then claim to support an amendment that is designed specifically to limit state control. Completely irrational. You want to steal from producers with the guns of the government. That's it. That is it.