CHL Question: Knife first or gun only?

[PiratePast40]

This is what I think about: Let's say you have a knife and a gun on you. With it being noted that both can be equally lethal, would the law expect you to use the weapon that is perceived to be least lethal first? (As if you have all the time in the world for decision-making). What if I feel my life is threatened and I have mace and a gun? This is Oregon after all.

It's about stopping the threat against you or a loved one. Lethality is irrelevant. That's also my justification for using SD ammunition. Energy dissipation into the threat is the goal, not causing wounds.

 

[MikeE]

My conclusion about this problem is that you need a hand to hand 'default', simple moves that "keep you upright and conscious", as South Narc puts it (google him). Also, going to a tool requires positioning at these distances - getting off line. It's really tough.

 

[richdav]

IMO this is worth watching as part of this debate. I do agree with most previous comments about using what you have trained with. Most will be in the red if not black ( Copper metal color code) when/if these things happen. I would say buy a training blade (not a folder) and start training. You will at some point feel comfortable carrying it for defense. Check out Sayoc Kali.

Kyle Defoor gets up close and personal with combatives. - YouTube

 

[Riot]

What if I feel my life is threatened and I have mace and a gun? This is Oregon after all.

Lots of people make this mistake, even police.

Tasers, Pepper Spray and Batons are not for deadly force encounters...the gun is. Can you kill someone with means other than a gun? You bet. But I don't care if the guy was armed or not, if he's killing someone he should be shot, not sprayed, beaten or tased.

 

[mjbskwim]

OK,y'all can cowboy up all you want.

I don't carry 24/7 like some,but if I go to the Puget Sound area I do.
If I go to a bad neighborhood,only because I have to, I am not going to try your cowboy quick draw.

So if I'm leaving a poker game in the middle of the wee hours,with a pocket full of cash,I'm asking for.......nevermind
I'm going to have my weapon in hand in a pocket. Like I said y'all can play quick draw all you want,I'll have a leg up and be ready to take action.
Heck a hand in the pocket pointing the direction of someone with ill intent may make them hesitate a bit. you start your quick draw and...well there is always someone faster

As far as the knife alternative,I'm with Mark. They would never see it coming

 

[mjbskwim]

 

[clearconscience]

I personally carry both, knife just for an all around tool.
But the only time you should use ANY weapon is when you feel an immediate threat to your life or someone else's life (or threat of great bodily injury) and in that case I would always go straight for the most useful and potent weapon that will have the most probability of mine or others survival.
And if you have to use deadily force make sure it's actually deadily. Because if you go to court that survivor will always lie to get what they need. Don't give any opportunity to put yourself in a position to be the bad guy.

I use my knife as a back up. Gun gets knocked away, ammo is out, whatever.

Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, and if the other person has a knife put the odds in your favor.

Rule 1,031: if you ever find yourself fighting a fair fight, your tactics sucks.

 

[fd15k]

IMO this is worth watching as part of this debate. I do agree with most previous comments about using what you have trained with. Most will be in the red if not black ( Copper metal color code) when/if these things happen. I would say buy a training blade (not a folder) and start training. You will at some point feel comfortable carrying it for defense. Check out Sayoc Kali.

Kyle Defoor gets up close and personal with combatives. - YouTube

That's not bad, and definitely Sayoc is one of the efficient knife systems out there. One thing to keep in mind with that video,
ORS 166.240 prohibits concealed carrying of any stabbing tools (dirks, daggers and similar tools), so picking a defensive blade
one has to think about deployment challenges.

 

[stratbastard]

I live in Eugene, and while we indeed have some genuinely unfortunate homeless folks (I'll always throw a legless vet a few bucks, for instance, even if he IS going to drink it up) , most encountered are either alcoholics, drug addicts, and/or young and able bodied. Almost every person I see standing at a corner with a "please help" sign I also see regularly squatting with other fellow "professionally homeless" passing around the booze and weed. Eugene has indeed become a mecca for these sorts, as we have The Eugene Mission, Food for Lane County, Catholic Services, Occupy Eugene tent cities, food banks, soup kitchens and even restaurants which serve the "homeless" free. Free White Bird Clinic if you start seeing bugs on the walls. Got a volunteer outfit called "Cahoots" with their own vans that come and scrape you up off the street if you are passed out drunk with a load in your pants or overdosed... taking you in of course for that free health care we all pay for. We of course have the "Country Fair" which brings 'em in by the thousands each year, and when they see how good it is here they stay. So no... I don't give out money either, because you cannot walk a single block in this town or enter most establishments without someone putting the arm out. It's getting so I can see them coming from across a parking lot, having already spotted a hopeful mark. I stick out my arm with a stern pointed finger and say "do not approach me!" This is sufficient most of the time.

Ya I do not give out money either, but people will still approach, and ROFL on the door thing ya me too my wife knows where ever we sit I do that.
LOL thats too funny.

 

[U201491]

Ya I do not give out money either, but people will still approach, and ROFL on the door thing ya me too my wife knows where ever we sit I do that.
LOL thats too funny.

I do as well. Never a back to the entrance. Not even sure where or when I picked that up.... I also dont like sitting next to windows where cars park head in to it.

 

[U201491]

I dont think the average person realizes what a knife attack entails.
It is a lot of blood in a very short time and consists of as many deep slashes to tendons arteries and muscle as possible in just seconds.
There isnt any "stabbing" unless you come in from behind with a kidney hit to paralyze so you can then take out the neck. That is NOT self defense......
Face to face is very fast and very messy. If you cant accomplish that, the knife just may end up in you vs on you.
Stick with the gun.

 

[fyrediver]

Either are considered lethal force. The knife is not a half measure with less lethal consequences, it is still lethal. If you feel lethal force is required then go with the tool that provides you with the best chance of success and survival.

If you're considering less lethal options then a Taser or pepper spray would be appropriate. I'd even veer away from impact weapons like a Kubotan unless one has SIGNIFICANT training and practices regularly.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

Use only the level of force reasonable and necessary to overcome the threat or resistance. Knives and guns are both potentially lethal, obviously.

I recommend studying the use of force continuum and become comfortable with less-than-lethal techniques and equipment so your choices are more than kill somebody or just stand there.

I place Tasers in there between level Three and Level four.

 

[orygun]

I carry a knife every day, but the only time it would be thought of as a defensive tool would be when I don't have a handgun present. (and that's rare)
If I'm forced into the position of having to deal with deadly force, I'm going with what I'm most likely to end the threat with, not something with less of a percentage of me prevailing.

Gun it is.

 

[fd15k]

I place Tasers in there between level Three and Level four.

It's funny about Tasers though... how many fatalities there have been already ?

 

[Riot]

Use only the level of force reasonable and necessary to overcome the threat or resistance. Knives and guns are both potentially lethal, obviously.

I recommend studying the use of force continuum and become comfortable with less-than-lethal techniques and equipment so your choices are more than kill somebody or just stand there.

I place Tasers in there between level Three and Level four.

The problem with Less-than-Lethal is training. You can't simply place a sponge round in your 12g shotgun and shoot some dude breaking into your house. Not knowing where you should hit someone or how far back you should be from your target can cause some serious damage to a guy- then suddenly you're being sued due to negligence or intent to cause harm against someone.

OC and Tasers you should be OK with...batons and rubber bullets? Not so much.

What this really boils down is why are you using force on someone in the first place? Are you working security for a buddy's business? Or are you fighting off a drunk dude in the parking lot while you're headed to your car.

There's a reason why I advocate leaving. You should always run/walk/drive away from an encounter (or just avoid them altogether). Call it being a coward all you want, but I'm alive and no dirtbag is seizing my house.

 

[Certaindeaf]

So I recently went through the process and got my CHL, but I had a question about when to go for the gun. I normally carry a 4-5 folding knife on me, a griptillian, and I was wondering if I was in a situation where there was a distance between the "perp" and me should I pull the knife first then go for the gun when they try to close the gap, or should I forget about the knife all together and wait for the proper time for the gun? I had someone tell me that I should never go for the knife if I have my gun on me. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Well that's a fair and proper question. I'd say to go forward or backward. If you go forward (no slight to Curly Moe), I'd just lay hands because it's quite quick but that's just a figure of speech. Perhaps lay the gentleman down on his back and get away.
There's probably no need to cut his head off.

 

[pokerace]

So I recently went through the process and got my CHL, but I had a question about when to go for the gun. I normally carry a 4-5 folding knife on me, a griptillian, and I was wondering if I was in a situation where there was a distance between the "perp" and me should I pull the knife first then go for the gun when they try to close the gap, or should I forget about the knife all together and wait for the proper time for the gun? I had someone tell me that I should never go for the knife if I have my gun on me. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

I would like to point out that your Oregon CHL, is just that concealed handgun license.. It say nothing about knifes, batons, or any slugging device.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

As mentioned, most civies are not well trained in hand to hand combat.

Lose the knife

If you have a person at 20 feet, first off, are they displaying a weapon that leads you to believe they are a threat, or are they just running their mouth.

A mouth on alcohol can sound pretty intimidating, but is this person a real threat??

If the perp has a knife at 20 feet, you have mere seconds to STOP THE THREAT

Pelvic shots will be the most effective at this point, BREAK THE FOUNDATION and get the perp neutralized (down and unable to get to you)

 

[dwaineshort]

I feel that within 7 yards I am very competent with my sidearm. I can run a 3" group at 50 feet with rapid fire. I do practice drawing and shooting also. I also understand that at the time my weapon is used, I become the defendant in most cases. I would obviously prefer not to engage at all possible. One of the reasons I decided to carry is because I play at a poker room in downtown and I leave in the early morning hours, usually with a pocket full of cash. I don't know if anyone has been robbed leaving there, but I don't want to be the first.

I have been interested in taking a few defensive classes, but like I said before, I prefer not to engage in a fight. If I feel there is a chance I would be in a fight, my sidearm would be pulled. I have seen to many fights take terrible turns, be it cheap shots or just good blows, I don't want to find out how much of a better fighter the "perp" is than me.

Thanks for all the replies so far, this has helped me take a different view on the situations.

The one fact you are missing is that an average fat guy can make up that distance with in 2 seconds. So unless you are already drawn. You have less then 2 seconds to draw, and shoot on target. Plus more then likely attackers come in pairs, or more.