CHL Question: Knife first or gun only?

[jbett98]

If you want to see what one crazy knife wielding guy can do to five armed policeman, watch this YouTube video.
It's not for anyone with a weak stomach.


Knife attack - One man stabs multiple cops, kills one - YouTube

 

[CoastRange57]

As mentioned, most civies are not well trained in hand to hand combat.

Lose the knife

If you have a person at 20 feet, first off, are they displaying a weapon that leads you to believe they are a threat, or are they just running their mouth.

A mouth on alcohol can sound pretty intimidating, but is this person a real threat??

If the perp has a knife at 20 feet, you have mere seconds to STOP THE THREAT

Pelvic shots will be the most effective at this point, BREAK THE FOUNDATION and get the perp neutralized (down and unable to get to you)

We run a drill where it is draw and shoot. Western style, pull it and shoot. Do not bring the weapon up to your sight line. Believe me, this is a hard drill. We are so conditioned to draw, go to a sight line point and then shoot, that training ourselves to pull the trigger at waist level or below is hard to do. But it is that quarter to half second that will make a huge difference.

You will need a body mass target and keep your distances to what has been talked about. You need to pull the trigger at least 3 times fast, because you are going to miss with at least one shot. I did anyway.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

Ever try the stress point index ???

Yank the weapon, as it's coming out, bring your weak hand to it's assisting grip position, then as the gun continues to rise towards the normal sight line, keeping a clear focus on the threat/center mass.

Now as soon as you see the gun muzzle coming over the target (don't sweat the sights) trip the trigger.

You will hit and fairly well too.

This is for close and dirty combat action (3-7 yards) and you will be supprised at how fast you can get good hits.

Getting fast shots is certainly good, but missing real fast is not gonna cut it.

If your carrying a 15 round blaster your gonna have an edge, but a couple misses with a 5 shot stubby mouse gun is gonna suck, that only leaves 3 left to gitterdone.

Snowy

 

[mievyl]

Dont any of you remember Crocodile Dundee? lol, you just need the bigger knife...

jk lol gun 1st !!

 

[Silver Hand]

Pull out your knife, Just to find out if he brought a gun to a knife fight.
You will know what you need to do, When your life is in jeopardy and it is down to the last few seconds 'that is usually when we find out'.
The fire arm gives you no privilege involving it's misuse and requires considerable responsibility to have in ones possession, but the benefit of having it may save your life should you keep it on your person every day of your life and every where you go. Learn to shoot it well, practice, practice, practice.
Silver Hand

 

[Silver Hand]

Ever try the stress point index ???

Yank the weapon, as it's coming out, bring your weak hand to it's assisting grip position, then as the gun continues to rise towards the normal sight line, keeping a clear focus on the threat/center mass.

Now as soon as you see the gun muzzle coming over the target (don't sweat the sights) trip the trigger.

You will hit and fairly well too.

This is for close and dirty combat action (3-7 yards) and you will be supprised at how fast you can get good hits.

Getting fast shots is certainly good, but missing real fast is not gonna cut it.

If your carrying a 15 round blaster your gonna have an edge, but a couple misses with a 5 shot stubby mouse gun is gonna suck, that only leaves 3 left to gitterdone.

Snowy

Some would rather five shots from a 13.5 ounce gun on there belt every day, then to rely on the 15 round blaster in the glove compartment or some place else. Just saying.
Silver Hand

 

[Callidus98]

Circling back to one of the early posts in this thread, the situation of someone threatening from 20 -25 yards and wanting to keep them at that distance. All situations like that are dynamic and one solution does not fit all. However, I would suggest clearing your concealment and taking a firm grip on your pistol but not drawing. Then in a loud voice, announce that you are armed and will defend yourself. This serves to put the bad guy on notice and hopefully keep him at a distance. It also alerts other potential witnesses that there is a situation, they can clear out, call 911 and support your claim that you attempted to avoid the altercation. Additionally, you have already started the draw process so if the bad guy does make a poor decision the time to deploy your weapon will be cut down, increasing your chances of successfully defending yourself.

That's my though anyway. I'd be interested in other opinions.

 

[Thebastidge]

Solid advice from respected members. The 7 yard distance is critical. An attacker can close at what would seem to be warp speed, and your situation deteriorates. I see no mention of stun guns and pepper spray. Probably useless unless highly trained, and you could end up getting a good whiff of pepper spray and your day is gonna get a lot worse.

Having said all that, there may be an alternative to deploy, depending on the circumstances. Personally, I have ruled out spray, tasers and batons due to the close contact range required to wield.

Let me disagree. I teach pepper spray classes (Sabre Red Certified Instructor Program), but there is nothing about pepper spray that requires you to be "highly trained". We teach the most basic class in 90 minutes. The main thing that this training teaches about pepper spray itself is choice of pepper spray styles (Stream, gel, foam, or mist). We also encourage the student that they can use it effectively (most people are SO far outside the defensive mindset they have to first have it explained that they have the right to defend themselves and that they can be effective without being a ninja or a Navy SEAL. Then we have them practice some basics that aren't specific to pepper spray defense, like getting off the line of the attack, using defensive blocking, and keeping their awareness pushed out to a reasonable defensive perimeter.

If you're prepared, you can work through a "whiff" of pepper spray, and can even maintain some measure of effectiveness with a substantive dose. It's much more debilitating to someone who isn't expecting it.

The reason for multiple options is because we cannot always control the perp's distance. In many circumstances, it is essentially impossible to maintain a Tuellar distance from every possible threat.

Taser is a brand name and specifically refers to an electric stun gun that shoots barbs for gaining distance. Pros and cons to that, it does actually take a bit more training to deploy them than a contact stun device. It's still not rocket surgery. This is the same argument that many people will make about firearms. They really aren't that complicated to use. At short distances, people are more likely to hit than miss. Sometimes not MUCH more likely, but likely enough that even a person with no formal training is still better off having it than not in an attack.

 

[Thebastidge]

Let's say you have a knife and a gun on you. With it being noted that both can be equally lethal, would the law expect you to use the weapon that is perceived to be least lethal first? (As if you have all the time in the world for decision-making). What if I feel my life is threatened and I have mace and a gun? This is Oregon after all.

Pre-supposing that there is a credible threat of immediate serious bodily harm or death based on ability, opportunity and some form of demonstrated intent, there is zero requirement to use some sort of escalation from less lethal to more lethal options. You should go immediately to the appropriate level of force to stop the level of force being used against you. You have no obligation to increase your risk to reduce the risk to the perp. It's much the same as escaping. If attempting to escape rather than fight back would increase your risk of being seriously harmed or killed, you don't have to retreat before using the appropriate force. In many cases, using the less effective tool would indicate that your threat assessment was such that you didn't really feel immediate danger of serious bodily harm or death, much like firing a "warning shot" or attempting to wound the perp might indicate that you didn't find it a serious, immediate threat.

It would ALWAYS depend on the totality of the circumstances, and you should be VERY prepared to explain it point by point, what your triggering criteria were, and how the perp crossed the lines that required your action.

You should note, however, that firearms legislation (in Oregon) is largely pre-empted (completely in WA) to the State level, while you have no license or permit to carry a concealed knife as a defensive weapon.

 

[JRH Oregon]

We run a drill where it is draw and shoot. Western style, pull it and shoot. Do not bring the weapon up to your sight line. Believe me, this is a hard drill. We are so conditioned to draw, go to a sight line point and then shoot, that training ourselves to pull the trigger at waist level or below is hard to do. But it is that quarter to half second that will make a huge difference.

You will need a body mass target and keep your distances to what has been talked about. You need to pull the trigger at least 3 times fast, because you are going to miss with at least one shot. I did anyway.

I actually practice this quite frequently, I have came to the point where I can hit center mass every shot from 5-10 yards. I had my buddy time from "go" to shot, he says go, I draw and fire, I came in just under 2 seconds. From everything I have been reading that is enough time to take down an incoming threat.

I have decided that my knife is just a tool and not a defense mechanism. I carry a firearm for my protection and train with that firearm. Why go to something that I have no training with and possibly end up in a bag.

Thanks everyone for the comments so far, this has turned in to a great discussion.

 

[Will]

I tend to CC my pistol in a position that is the most accessible to me and a knife in the next most accessible and I expect most do the same. I assume if there is a threat that I deem worthy enough of to require a weapon in hand it will be the pistol. I'm not looking to make it an even confrontation, I looking to make it one I survive. If the pistol or knife leaves it's holster it is because I honestly believe in the millisecond I am going to put it use. The weapon isn't drawn to deter but to defend. The reason I carry a knife, it us a useful tool in daily life and if in a wrestling match with a bad guy likely more effective than the pistol. The police won't cut you any slack because you decided to pull your knife on some loud mouth to deter them and left your pistol holstered. In that case you screwed up either way.

Lots of good information in this thread , I read it from the start. It is an individual choice on how you prepare to respond to a threat I can't say I disagree with much of what I read. Happy to see that no one suggested throwing your wallet at the bad guy and curl up in the fetal position.