National ATF is going after FRT

[ilikegunspdx]

Rare Breed only got a cease and desist order. But nothing else. Rare Breed initiated the lawsuit against the ATF I believe. Not sure if the ATF filed a countersuit/criminal charges?
Correct me if I'm wrong.

From what I understand I think u are right in that. Atf says cease and desist (ie stop selling ur product and work with us to ID anyone who already bought ur product). Then RB says, "go fly a kite, this is a legal product and our former atf experts all confirmed that before we started selling it" (all my words not theirs). So it's RB's lawsuit to continue to sell the product.

The bigger picture of that though of course is the government overreach by defining things as a "machine gun" that are not machine guns as the law stands (one function of the trigger, same basic argument for bump stocks imo).

I have seen similar in other industries not related to firearms and some of them have been absolutely outlandish. Gov says "you can't do that" when it's clearly outside of what the law says. And most people roll over because they do not have the $ or fortitude to fight it even though the law is on their side. And when they roll over it makes Gov agency's continue to think they can do it to the next person or business. Only way to stop it when it happens imo is lawsuit or if that government agency's funding is threatened. RB is fighting it and I applaud them for that.

 

[Member 34319]

RB is fighting it and I applaud them for that.

Not just that, they appear to have anticipated this fight and put things in motion to fight it effectively. The fact that they have gone this far into litigation, shows that the ATF is not on the correct side of the written law. The ATF is scrambling to demerit their legal efforts and using everything in their playbook to get the courts to work in their favor, likely because they know they can't win otherwise. This case is much larger than the average gun owner realizes. RB is fighting a much bigger fight than just the legality of their product, they are fighting the illegal and unethical ways of non elected alphabet agencies.

I fully support Rare Breed. God speed to them!

 

[wired]

From what I understand I think u are right in that. Atf says cease and desist (ie stop selling ur product and work with us to ID anyone who already bought ur product). Then RB says, "go fly a kite, this is a legal product and our former atf experts all confirmed that before we started selling it" (all my words not theirs). So it's RB's lawsuit to continue to sell the product.

The bigger picture of that though of course is the government overreach by defining things as a "machine gun" that are not machine guns as the law stands (one function of the trigger, same basic argument for bump stocks imo).

I have seen similar in other industries not related to firearms and some of them have been absolutely outlandish. Gov says "you can't do that" when it's clearly outside of what the law says. And most people roll over because they do not have the $ or fortitude to fight it even though the law is on their side. And when they roll over it makes Gov agency's continue to think they can do it to the next person or business. Only way to stop it when it happens imo is lawsuit or if that government agency's funding is threatened. RB is fighting it and I applaud them for that.

FRT's are not like bumpstocks. With a bumpstock you are releasing the trigger completely for each pull. The FRT trigger shooter never releases the trigger. The ATF's position will I assume be that while the trigger is doing a mechanical reset on its own the operator never releases the trigger and the gun continues to fire. Add to that the fact that its actually the bolt carrier closing that releases the trigger with a safety sear mechanism to release with a already tensioned trigger. I for on think the ATF has a pretty good case .

 

[Member 34319]

FRT's are not like bumpstocks. With a bumpstock you are releasing the trigger completely for each pull. The FRT trigger shooter never releases the trigger. The ATF's position will I assume be that while the trigger is doing a mechanical reset on its own the operator never releases the trigger and the gun continues to fire. Add to that the fact that its actually the bolt carrier closing that releases the trigger with a safety sear mechanism to release with a already tensioned trigger. I for on think the ATF has a pretty good case .

I don't think that the finger touching the trigger matters, it's not written in the law. You don't have to remove your finger to operate a semi automatic trigger. Nothing states the finger must be removed per pull of the trigger. It just says one pull of the trigger.

The trigger pull does release a sear, otherwise it wouldn't stop. The safety bar merely prevents hammer follow. The trigger pull releases the sear which then allows the hammer to rest against the safety bar until the BCG is fully in battery. Same thing is utilized in other triggers like the Fostech binary triggers. Release the trigger mid magazine, the sear stops the hammer, not the safety bar.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I'm no expert on triggers, but the fact those 4 experts (who are real experts) says it meets the law means a lot I think. Especially when one literally wrote the atf training manual on how to identify a machine gun and another one trained atf personnel in the same.

 

[wired]

I don't think that the finger touching the trigger matters, it's not written in the law. You don't have to remove your finger to operate a semi automatic trigger. Nothing states the finger must be removed per pull of the trigger. It just says one pull of the trigger.

The trigger pull does release a sear, otherwise it wouldn't stop. The safety bar merely prevents hammer follow. The trigger pull releases the sear which then allows the hammer to rest against the safety bar until the BCG is fully in battery. Same thing is utilized in other triggers like the Fostech binary triggers. Release the trigger mid magazine, the sear stops the hammer, not the safety bar.

OK look at it this way. The trigger pull is never released. . Its not. The trigger pushes forward with mechanical action but your fingers trigger pull is not released in any way. One pull , multiple shots. Its all going to depend on the definition of "pull" .The triggers action is unlike the fostechs where with the FRT its the trigger bar that releases the pre-tensioned trigger that again is not released by the shooter. The fostech trigger is definitely released by the shooter.

 

[wired]

I'm no expert on triggers, but the fact those 4 experts (who are real experts) says it meets the law means a lot I think. Especially when one literally wrote the atf training manual on how to identify a machine gun and another one trained atf personnel in the same.

Theyre also paid consultants.

 

[Member 34319]

OK look at it this way. The trigger pull is never released. . Its not. The trigger pushes forward with mechanical action but your fingers trigger pull is not released in any way. One pull , multiple shots. Its all going to depend on the definition of "pull" .The triggers action is unlike the fostechs where with the FRT its the trigger bar that releases the pre-tensioned trigger that again is not released by the shooter. The fostech trigger is definitely released by the shooter.

I get what you are saying and that will likely be the ATFs argument.

Id argue that by definition, which is where it weighs in the favor of RB, there is a pull of the trigger per 1 round fired. Rather you the human is the one doing it or the gun (technically both are), there is 1 rearward pull of the trigger per 1 round fired. Yes, with constant rearward pressure you will make the firearm shoot multiple rounds, but it still is one pull per one round fired. Trigger goes forward, and if you were to let go, it would not fire another round, hold pressure, you pull the trigger again another round fires and so forth. It is NOT 1 pull, it is 30 pulls as fast as humanly possible, whether you feel your finger doing it or not, it IS 30 pulls for one stanag magazine. Those pulls just happen really fast. There is no law against how fast you can pull the trigger or whether you can or can not utilize internal workings of a firearm to force a trigger forward. Shoestring, that's another story.

 

[CamoDeafie]

How are Gatling cranks/hand crank devices legal then?

Edit. I mean... the old field gun carriage mounted .45-70 and those nifty add ons for mechanically pulling the triggers on a semiautomatic rifle?

"More than 1 shot per a single function of the trigger" in the letter of the law of NFA Machine Gun definition.

nothing about "rate of fire". Nothing about " a single shot per pull. Nothing about "fully released/removed finger from trigger".

A single function.

That is where the law is very likely going to be hinged on for all the arguments.

 

[Bsteinhauer28]

 

[rdb241]

OK look at it this way. The trigger pull is never released. . Its not. The trigger pushes forward with mechanical action but your fingers trigger pull is not released in any way. One pull , multiple shots. Its all going to depend on the definition of "pull" .The triggers action is unlike the fostechs where with the FRT its the trigger bar that releases the pre-tensioned trigger that again is not released by the shooter. The fostech trigger is definitely released by the shooter.

Man you are an ATF plant working for them. You in several past posts appear to be anti 2A. Go ahead and rebute my statement trying to convince me otherwise. Because it will not work you have shown your colors before.

 

[wired]

Man you are an ATF plant working for them. You in several past posts appear to be anti 2A. Go ahead and rebute my statement trying to convince me otherwise. Because it will not work you have shown your colors before.

Yep thats me. Secret squirrel ATF plant. Man, you're smart. That's how we do things here at the ATF. We mole our way into gun websites and as we are peaking over fences wearing our ATF hats we try to convince folks that braces are really stocks which is totally written there in the constitution as being BS. Then we really screw with you simps by pretending that a device that makes a gun fire 1200 rounds per minute is a freakin' machinegun. J Edgar would be so proud.

 

[rdb241]

Theyre also paid consultants.

Everything you say about this subject is negative. I did not read your prior post and will not read it. To me anything you say is BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. i have ne 2A trust in you at all.

 

[wired]

Everything you say about this subject is negative. I did not read your prior post and will not read it. To me anything you say is BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. i have ne 2A trust in you at all.

Its negative because as much as you'd like it to be different Rare Breed is going to lose their case. I'm a realist. I'm also a mechanical engineer by training and spent 20 years as an 02/07 SOT . Do you even know what that is? I know exactly how the device works and I know how the ATF operates. They ruled the FRT-15 to be a machine gun conversion unit because it is. Its not hard to figure out that a trigger you never release tension on that makes a gun empty as fast as it can empty is a machine gun. Slight bump to your finger during its cycle or not. I have several of them , I know exactly how they work. Now, I have to figure out something to do with them. Its not over yet but really, it is. A few more weeks and the nail will be in the coffin of the FRT-15 and the ATF will be out there with lists.

 

[SunTzu]

Its negative because as much as you'd like it to be different Rare Breed is going to lose their case. I'm a realist. I'm also a mechanical engineer by training and spent 20 years as an 02/07 SOT . Do you even know what that is? I know exactly how the device works and I know how the ATF operates. They ruled the FRT-15 to be a machine gun conversion unit because it is. Its not hard to figure out that a trigger you never release tension on that makes a gun empty as fast as it can empty is a machine gun. Slight bump to your finger during its cycle or not. I have several of them , I know exactly how they work. Now, I have to figure out something to do with them. Its not over yet but really, it is. A few more weeks and the nail will be in the coffin of the FRT-15 and the ATF will be out there with lists.

I get what you're saying.

Realists/pessimists are often more accurate in their assessment of present reality, true.

......BUT.....

But over time "realists" accomplish far less in life because to do something amazing you have to go against the odds.

It does come off as a proverbial "crab in the bucket" mentality that bitterly says: "Machine-guns are illegal and always will be, don't you dare dream of something bigger."

There have been other times where failure and loss of gun rights seemed inevitable, like in the aftermath of Sandy-Hook or when our Defender of Gun-Rights Trump wanted to ban suppressors. Yes, left-leaning judges will almost always rule against FRT but we just might get a SCOTUS win on this and that would be a huge victory. Even if Rare Breed loses, getting thousands of Americans excited and caring about machinegun cases is a positive move. If everyone accepts being a slave, you'll be a slave forever.

So what if the bear pokes back? Even if there's a low chance of a court victory it's bad bubblegum that someone put together the money and legal case to at least try to achieve something amazing.

Lastly, sometimes SOT, LEOs and Alphabet Boys come across as Fudds because they're so used to following/upholding laws that they forget that the laws are capricious and unjust.

 

[Will_White]

Its negative because as much as you'd like it to be different Rare Breed is going to lose their case. I'm a realist. I'm also a mechanical engineer by training and spent 20 years as an 02/07 SOT . Do you even know what that is? I know exactly how the device works and I know how the ATF operates. They ruled the FRT-15 to be a machine gun conversion unit because it is. Its not hard to figure out that a trigger you never release tension on that makes a gun empty as fast as it can empty is a machine gun. Slight bump to your finger during its cycle or not. I have several of them , I know exactly how they work. Now, I have to figure out something to do with them. Its not over yet but really, it is. A few more weeks and the nail will be in the coffin of the FRT-15 and the ATF will be out there with lists.

Honestly at this point I think that it might be the point to get a test case on the NFA and get it to the Supreme Court, hopefully before the "Conservative" majority is lost. As well as getting as many out there as possible so it's hard to enforce the ban like bumpstocks.

 

[wired]

I get what you're saying.

Realists/pessimists are often more accurate in their assessment of present reality, true.

......BUT.....

But over time "realists" accomplish far less in life because to do something amazing you have to go against the odds.

It does come off as a proverbial "crab in the bucket" mentality that bitterly says: "Machine-guns are illegal and always will be, don't you dare dream of something bigger."

There have been other times where failure and loss of gun rights seemed inevitable, like in the aftermath of Sandy-Hook or when our Defender of Gun-Rights Trump wanted to ban suppressors. Yes, left-leaning judges will almost always rule against FRT but we just might get a SCOTUS win on this and that would be a huge victory. Even if Rare Breed loses, getting thousands of Americans excited and caring about machinegun cases is a positive move. If everyone accepts being a slave, you'll be a slave forever.

So what if the bear pokes back? Even if there's a low chance of a court victory it's bad bubblegum that someone put together the money and legal case to at least try to achieve something amazing.

Lastly, sometimes SOT, LEOs and Alphabet Boys come across as Fudds because they're so used to following/upholding laws that they forget that the laws are capricious and unjust.

SOT's walk a thin line and follow laws to keep themselves out of jail. Jail sucks. I get what the "FreE MeN " crowd is saying but it seems to me some of them have had little exposure to the ATF or the NFA and do not know what they are capable of. I do. Ive seen friends go to jail over NFA charges and have had CI's attempt to incriminate ME personally. I will not advocate for nor participate in breaking of ATF rules , regs or the NFA . I could give a crap if something is unjust.

 

[wired]

Honestly at this point I think that it might be the point to get a test case on the NFA and get it to the Supreme Court, hopefully before the "Conservative" majority is lost. As well as getting as many out there as possible so it's hard to enforce the ban like bumpstocks.

The bumpstock battle was a simple case of executive over reach. Bumpstocks are not machineguns. The FRT stuff? There is a VERY solid argument that they are.

 

[SunTzu]

Honestly at this point I think that it might be the point to get a test case on the NFA and get it to the Supreme Court, hopefully before the "Conservative" majority is lost. As well as getting as many out there as possible so it's hard to enforce the ban like bumpstocks.

Exactly, sure the odds may be against us. But someone has to put together a sound legal challenge and try to get something up to SCOTUS.


If they win, I'll get a beltfed upper with an FRT lower, don full larping kit w/ nods, plates and ride my not-an-LMG like a witch's broom all the way to space for halloween.

 

[223to45]

The bumpstock battle was a simple case of executive over reach. Bumpstocks are not machineguns. The FRT stuff? There is a VERY solid argument that they are.

What is this very solid argument.

not even close