Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

ATF and backroom dealings.

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by timac, Apr 11, 2015.

  1. timac

    timac Loading Magazines! Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,004
    Likes Received:
    1,503
    It appears that our ammo and guns are being attacked secretively.



    706132ee197a6c1bd628234c4963b2b9.png
    David Codrea
    Gun Rights Examiner

    ATF classification compromise to redefine sporting use, ban certain ammo imports
    Next: ‘Armed American Radio’ launches ‘Daily Defense’ program
    April 10, 2015 4:15 AM MST
    1810530c00bd126a9d7a5d6c21356e6e.jpg
    Sources say a deal in the works includes a push to expand definitions to allow for further importation bans on certain types of presently legal ammunition.
    Photo by Scott Olson/Getty Images
    The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ classification of pistol grip only firearms with 14” barrels that fire shotgun shells and are over 26” in overall length as neither “shotguns” nor National Firearms Act “Destructive Devices” or “Any Other Weapons” has created a situation wherein the agency must either quietly save face or have it exposed that untold numbers of good faith gun owners currently legally possess firearms problematic for the government to allow. In order for that status quo to continue, ATF, in conjunction with certain members of Congress and lobbying interests, is working at “tweaking” its definition of the arbitrary “sporting use” term, insider sources tell Gun Rights Examiner. And with that will come a push to expand definitions to allow for further importation bans on certain types of presently legal ammunition.

    While many of the details of the deal being worked on are sketchy, informed sources are of the opinion that the “tradeoff” is a backroom effort that includes undisclosed “bipartisan” members of Congress, ATF acting on behalf of itself, the Department of Justice and the administration, and firearms lobbyists who have traditionally been part of the behind-the-scenes development, if not outright “ghostwriting” of classifications and rules affecting the industry and gun owners.

    This is hardly the first time ATF has found itself needing to reverse prior decisions. The entire Heller Foundation-supported machine gun case currently making its way through the courts was set up by the Bureau first ruling that NFA trusts are not “persons” as defined by law, and were therefore eligible to manufacture and possess post-1986 machine guns typically reserved for military, law enforcement and properly licensed members of the firearms industry. They changed their minds and demanded their tax stamp back despite no statutory provision for doing that. And with the current state of disorganization and unknown numbers of contradictory decisions, further disconnects where band aid “solutions” are applied will be practically guaranteed, as a recent ATF industry circular demonstrates.

    “Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked,” ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch declared in its “Open letter on the redesign of ‘stabilizing braces.’” This is tacit admission that conflicting classifications and rulings force firearms makers and owners to face decisions that could land them in life-altering trouble. This reaffirms that ATF only gets around to addressing those conflicts on a haphazard and sporadic basis when individual circumstances bring them to the fore. The scope of that problem is unknown, but quite possibly massive and severe, as a 2005 Congressional Research Services report concedes.

    “It is significant to note that ATF regulations, rulings and classifications are based upon the agency’s best interpretation of current law and reported case law,” the report observes. “As such, ATF determinations are subject to the Administrative Procedures Act and can be challenged in federal court, after all other administrative remedies have been exhausted.”

    “According to ATF, the agency has over 300 cubic feet of classification letters stored in file cabinets,” the report elaborates. As noted in my latest GUNS Magazine “Rights Watch” column, none of these have been scanned into a searchable database so that consistency of interpretations can be assured and conflicts identified and resolved. As that report was published 10 years ago, the thought of what it must look like today evokes nothing so much as the government warehouse at the end of “Raiders of the Lost Ark.”

    As an aside, the APA requirement was directly contradicted by ATF in its aborted (for now) attempt to seek a ban on “green tip” ammo using a “sporting purposes” rationale. As first reported in this column, the Bureau’s Enforcement Programs and Services spokesperson maintained its proposal was merely a “framework” and would “not actually be a [regulatory] change, more of a policy along those lines.”

    This morning, citizen journalist and blogger Mike Vanderboegh, who first reported on allegations at the CleanUpATF whistleblower website that Operation Fast and Furious weapons were involved in the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, will be attending various seminars at the National Rifle Association’s annual meeting in Nashville. He’ll be asking questions to include if NRA knows anything about a “sporting use” tweak and a potential specialized ammo import ban. His findings will be posted on the Sipsey Street Irregulars blog when he makes his report from the convention press room.

    With this level of uncertainty, it’s always a judgment call on whether or not it’s too early to issue a report. Admittedly, there’s always a risk involved in doing so, especially with issues capable of generating a lot of passion, and particularly to the credibility of anyone who stirs people up for no good reason. The decision to file this one was made after consultation with knowledgeable insider sources who have a track record of professional accomplishments and of providing reliable information that has borne out in the past.

    On the “to do” list at this writing will be efforts to determine the exact scope, nature and language of the proposed changes alleged to be in development, and to identify all parties involved, including members of Congress who reportedly have commissioned a research and feasibility study, as well as any lobbyists who may be helping steer the process. Whether that can be accomplished is unknown, as cooperation on the part of people being asked questions is not a given.

    Perhaps inferences will need to be made based on “No comment” replies, or outright denials. Regardless, three clear points remain valid and ought to be priorities for advocates of the right to keep and bear arms no matter how this story shakes out.

    First and foremost, the entire concept of “sporting purposes” is not only arbitrary, in addition to having documented 1938 German law origins, it is offensive to the core purpose behind the Second Amendment. It is past time members of Congress who have enjoyed gun owner endorsements and contributions acknowledged that and worked to eliminate it as a criterion -- and that’s something those GOP presidential candidates vying for NRA member support at this weekend’s annual meeting leadership forum could make a point of pledging to sign if elected.

    Second, it must be made more than clear that no “tradeoffs” or “compromises” on any kind of ammunition are acceptable. Marginalizing hobbyists and enthusiasts like those who fire off tracers at Knob Creek and throwing them under the bus is unacceptable, and part of a “divide and conquer” strategy that all gun owners must stand fast against and refuse to cede ground to. As seen every time the gun-grabbers advance, far from being satisfied, they always use their new position of advantage from which to launch their next deeper incursion.

    Third, and this is something well within the powers of Congress to require, this business of 300 cubic feet of files, or whatever it is 10 years after that report was made, is unacceptable, and lends itself to further disastrous reversals with gun owners paying the price for ATF’s disorganized laziness. It’s like something we would expect from a police station in a Third World country, not from the government of the United States. Those files need to be scanned and placed in a searchable data base accessible to all, and then audited for consistency, with contradictory classifications and rulings identified and openly resolved with public input and Congressional oversight.

    This column and Sipsey Street Irregulars will continue to monitor and report on developments.

    UPDATE: I have been advised to emphasize that per statute, this will apply to all “pistol grip shotgun-like firearms” ever made with a bore diameter greater than one-half inch. See ATF’s 2009 FFL newsletter.
     
    dude23, mjbskwim, Caveman Jim and 6 others like this.
  2. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

    Messages:
    3,288
    Likes Received:
    6,531
    Thank you for posting this.
     
    ZA_Survivalist and IronMonster like this.
  3. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,031
    Likes Received:
    1,718
    Freeking tyrants, the whole lot of them...what's next? Pistol rounds that fire more 1,300 FPS because it might go through a vest?

    Here's the question I'm dying to ask...what the frack is the difference between a rifle round and a pistol round?

    The diameter of the bullet?
    The length of the cassing?
    The speed (fps) of the bullet?

    18 USC § 921 defines a "rifle" as:
    defines the terms "hangun" as:
    defines "ammunition" as:
    defines "armor piercing ammunition" as:
    So that begs the question...where the frack are they getting the authority and determination to declare what is a rifle cartidge being fired from a pistol and a pistol cartidge being fired from a rifle, especially when there is no definition as "rifle ammunition" or "pistol ammunition"?

    The feds need to define that, first, before they can adequately have the authority to do anything on this "sporting ban"...and they know it!
     
    Capn Jack and ZA_Survivalist like this.
  4. jb11

    jb11 salem Active Member

    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    106
    It's never ending nonsense :mad:.
     
  5. timac

    timac Loading Magazines! Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,004
    Likes Received:
    1,503
    Start contacting your reps, the NRA, GOA etc.
     
    Riot and Capn Jack like this.
  6. timac

    timac Loading Magazines! Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,004
    Likes Received:
    1,503
    UPDATE:

    SSI Exclusive: Negotiating Rights Away. Cynical Secret "Deal With The Devil" Confirmed. NRA, ATF& bi-partisan group of politicians agree to save ATF from itself and widen the definition of "sporting purposes." "A hole big enough to drive Diane Feinstein's limousine through."

    From the press room of the NRA National Meeting, Nashville, TN: Sipsey Street Irregulars can now confirm the broad outlines of a story first disclosed two days ago by National Gun Rights Examiner columnist David Codrea. Last week, a secret deal involving the National Rifle Association lobbying arm and brokered by politicians of both national political parties was struck in Washington DC that would save the ATF from the political and legal consequences of its own regulatory errors. In the process, this deal would broaden the language of the 1968 Gun Control Act regarding "sporting purposes" and allow ATF to extract itself from the potentially catastrophic political damage of enforcing its arbitrary ruling that makes every owner of a pistol grip 12 Gauge shotgun like the Mossberg Cruiser a felon in possession of a "destructive device" subject to the penalties of the National Firearms Act of 1934 -- currently up to 10 years in federal prison and a quarter million dollar fine.
    According to sources well-familiar with the legislative rationale and ever-changing amd even contradictory regulatory history of the ATF, this crisis for the agency was self-inflicted and precipitated by two legal cases wending their way through the federal courts in Texas and Pennsylvania. Said one, "The ATF doesn't dare reverse itself unilaterally once again on what does and does not constitute a shotgun 'destructive device.' They are frightened to death that either case may go to discovery and reveal their whole sorry rule-making mess." Said another, "There are people currently rotting in federal prison on NFA violations and others walking around scot-free. At some point, unless the Congress gives them the cover by changing the law, they are going to have to explain that in open court."
    As explained by sources here and in the nation's capitol, the outlines of what one called "this cynical deal with the Devil" are as follows:
    1. The ATF will be let off the hook by broadening the "sporting purposes" language and legislatively negating their own determination that millions of heretofore legal pistol-grip shotguns produced over the past decades by companies like Mossberg are "destructive devices."
    2. The NRA will get to claim credit for, as one source said, "riding in out of the storm on a white horse and claiming to have saved millions of firearm owners from federal prison, even though," he added, "everybody in the room with an IQ above room temperature understands that politically and legally there is no (expletive deleted) way that ATF can enforce this ruling on anybody. They can't and they won't . . so" he concluded, "the NRA will claim to have saved their members from a boogeyman that never really existed."
    3. In return for allowing NRA to claim the credit, the Democrats demanded another ammunition import ban on "specialty ammunition," to include tracers. Some sources agreed that this last "gimme" was a "throwaway," in the words of one. "Look, their M.O. is to always demand more than they know they can get in to get the thing they really value. They'd like to get it but what they really covet is knocking a bigger hole in the Constitution by (widening the 'sporting purposes' language) . . . this deal will give them one big enough to drive Diane Feinstein's limousine through."
    This reporter could get no one from NRA national leadership to go on or off the record to confirm this deal, but other sources familiar with the internal fallout of these revelations say that David Codrea's original story was "spot on," adding "they can't believe they were found out." Other sources in the nation's capitol indicate that the deal was intended to be kept secret until it could be attached as a innocuous rider at the last moment to a "must-pass" appropriations bill. Said one: "The plan was to pass it, claim victory on all sides, and pray that no one noticed the 'sporting purposes tweak.'"
    He added: "What they're really frightened about is how you guys found out about this so soon. That's got them rattled." Added another, "they're looking for your sources and looking at each other and wondering who the snitch is." There is much behind-the-scenes speculation here as to how members of the NRA will react, what answers they will demand, and how these revelations will play into the Wayne LaPiere-Chris Cox rivalry for power. It is no secret to the insiders I talked to that there is little love lost between the two and much mutual suspicion of motives. Said one: "The key thing is, was this Cox's baby alone or did he get Wayne's signoff?" And, he added, "who's going to be manuevered into taking the blame for it?" Other sources tell this reporter that some very hard questions are going to be asked of Cox and LaPierre by board members in the coming days.
    If so, that will be more reaction than that shown by the so-called "mainstream gun rights press" in evidence in the NRA pressroom. Since David Codrea's story broke two days ago, they have been, as near as this reporter could tell, studiously, deliberately incurious about the implications of these revelations. Copies of David's story have been distributed to them since it broke and most seem to have ignored it and few asked me any questions about it.
    What reaction NRA leadership had to Codrea's original story could only be gleaned by second-hand sources, but one said that "what they're telling anybody who asks is that you're both crazy sonsabubblegumes who are making this up. . . You two are not their favorite people right now." I asked another source, "Are they mad because the story is right, or mad because it's wrong." "They're mad," he said with a grin, "because it's right."
    So, in the midst of non-denial denials and ad hominem attacks, we will continue to try to drill down to the truth as we can, this last day of the NRA national meeting of 2015.
     
  7. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,031
    Likes Received:
    1,718
    I wonder how many people's pockets are lined (specifically in the gun industry) everytime legislation like this is enacted.

    Politics is business...not about speaking for the people.
     
    Stomper likes this.
  8. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

    Messages:
    12,894
    Likes Received:
    19,472
    Its not the organization that stinks, it's the stinkers within the organization that suck. :mad:
     
  9. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,031
    Likes Received:
    1,718
    My email to the ATF...

     
  10. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,828
    Likes Received:
    6,266
    No fan of the ATF after viewing what they have done in my lifetime. They need to be shut down.
     
  11. 1Asterisk

    1Asterisk Eugene, OR Member

    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    41
    Did anybody read this part (of SSI article)?

    "...a secret deal involving the National Rifle Association lobbying arm and brokered by politicians of both national political parties was struck in Washington DC that would save the ATF..."
     
  12. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,031
    Likes Received:
    1,718
    It doesn't surprise me at all, and it shouldn't surprise you either. Deals, back and forth, are made all the time.

    NRA fights the battles it knows they'll win. Then they'll post on all their magazines and ads about how proactive they are. The NRA also does sit downs with their opposition (it doesn't do lobby groups any good to just throw money at issues, they have to lobby you to throw money at them to throw money at the issues). This way, they can still turn a profit (donations, membership dues, etc.) while making you think they're the best thing for gun owners.

    You think if there were no gun laws on the books the NRA would still be the size it is? Would they still make the money that they make? Nope...

    Don't be surprised to see a push (especially from the NRA) to make training requirements (specifically- NRA training requirements) a national requirement. CJTC instructors are already lobbying for it!
     
    Martini_Up, shootnscoot and Stomper like this.
  13. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,828
    Likes Received:
    6,266
    If you study Alinski tactics you will see that every thing said or done is for the soul purpose to produce hate and discontent along with distrust. I don't believe much I read anymore because it's mostly propaganda using Alinski style assaults. It's about getting you to think what they want you to think.

    How many time have you seen it said, there is no difference in either party? If you believe that the you are a victim of Alinski politics. Hillary wrote her college paper on Alinski and how to use it in politics.o_O
     
  14. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

    Messages:
    12,894
    Likes Received:
    19,472
    Unfortunately that paper was lost went she purged her server of all those illegal emails. :rolleyes:
     
  15. 1Asterisk

    1Asterisk Eugene, OR Member

    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    41
    It doesn't suprise me either. I send my money to other groups now. Not the NRA.

    What did surprise me was the lack of posts to this thread indicating outrage that the NRA would be involved in secret deals to restrict our gun rights.

    Even though I am no longer an NRA member, I let them know this morning of my outrage. All of you should as well.

    It is time to nullify using mass non-compliance.
     
  16. SCARed

    SCARed Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    473
    Likes Received:
    285
    Hasn't the NRA been behind every major piece of legislation that has taken away our rights as gun owners?
     
  17. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,828
    Likes Received:
    6,266
    I think some of the posters are plants to stir up hate and discontent with lies about the NRA.:D

    Edited to add, guys come in here with damn few post and no feedback yet they want to talk crap about the NRA. Build a little background first if you want to be taken seriously.:D
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2015
    Caveman Jim likes this.
  18. boogerhook

    boogerhook Seattle Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,153
    Likes Received:
    1,224
    he is not entirely wrong in that the NRA supported the NFA and GCA and today we wish we had more foresight ...
     
    Who The F R U and Ben Beckerich like this.
  19. Ben Beckerich

    Ben Beckerich NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    3,911
    Likes Received:
    2,323
    I'm a well established member and have been no fan of the NRA for most of a decade. I cancelled my membership in '06 or so, when I discovered they'd been behind the FOPA and half a dozen other completely BS pieces of legislation. Screw those guys.
     
  20. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,828
    Likes Received:
    6,266
    It's kinda like family, you know your brother isn't always honest but you don't need an outsider stirring the pot. Yes a lot of the leadership of the NRA are liberals and come from the east coast so yes in some cases they must be playing along with the politicians. Join the NRA and vote them out rather than stab the whole membership in the back.o_O
     
    U201491, Caveman Jim and boogerhook like this.