National Are pistol braces coming to the chopping block?

[CamoDeafie]

Federally its not an issue. I believe Amador was arrested by Florida police and charged with a felony under Florida laws for constructive possession of an SBR

The laws used were Federal and State.it might be noted that yes it was county and State police that arrested Mr. Amador, but the laws he was charged with violating seems to be Federal. Also, there is a case precedent from 1997 in US v. Turnbough, 1997 U.S. App. LEXIS 11886, *6. The government may establish constructive possession by demonstrating that the defendant exercised ownership, dominion or control over the premises in which the contraband is concealed. Id.
(Emphasis mine]

 

[CountryGent]

Federally its not an issue. I believe Amador was arrested by Florida police and charged with a felony under Florida laws for constructive possession of an SBR

True. And he even posted about it back in the day on Silencer Talk. The charges were later dropped.

 

[wollzy]

So if a person an AR15 pistol and an AR15 rifle plus some spare parts such as a stock he didn't like -- is he in constructive possession of an SBR?

I don't know the answer to that. It appears however, if random proofless internet results are sufficient, that Florida Man got his gun back and charges dropped: NFA and the issues surrounding Constructive Possession (scroll down to "gremlin").

For several months I'd been toying with the idea of getting an AR pistol and now I'm full "nope."

At this point its probably worth skipping over the pistol and paying the $200 for the tax stamp to have an SBR. Avoid some worry and a potential headache.

 

[CamoDeafie]

So if a person an AR15 pistol and an AR15 rifle plus some spare parts such as a stock he didn't like -- is he in constructive possession of an SBR?

I don't know the answer to that. It appears however, if random proofless internet results are sufficient, that Florida Man got his gun back and charges dropped: NFA and the issues surrounding Constructive Possession (scroll down to "gremlin").

For several months I'd been toying with the idea of getting an AR pistol and now I'm full "nope."

I would say it depends on how zealous the agents and police are in your State. I believe WA used to prohibit SBRs until fairly recently?

 

[wollzy]

I would say it depends on how zealous the agents and police are in your State. I believe WA used to prohibit SBRs until fairly recently?

Is there a place where they aren't zealous? Especially the ATF?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Is there a place where they aren't zealous? Especially the ATF?

DC with respect to Congresspeople and their guards?

 

[Hueco]

As always so many gun owners just do not "get it". Way too many gun owners just do not care. They refuse to vote, insert all the excuses here, or they vote and throw the vote away or even vote for the people who want to take guns. So all "gun control" is done a piece at a time. Of course they will do away with the brace. As soon as they took off people weekly were pushing the line. Constantly asking Feds questions, constantly trying to push the line. So of course they will push until the Feds push. Then what? Sue?
Good luck with that. Meanwhile most gun owners hear this, say whats a brace? I don't care, I don't have one, and go back to sleep. I love the Brace. When either my State or the Feds, whichever comes first does away with them I will miss them. When they take all AR's I will miss them too. Gun owners insist on doing it to themselves and then make excuses .

Might be good that most gun owners don't care. My conspiracy theory side is thinking that this is being pulled by antitrumpers in the ATF a month before election in order to piss off some of his base so that they either don't vote or vote the other way.

Now, where's my tinfoil?

 

[awshoot]

At this point its probably worth skipping over the pistol and paying the $200 for the tax stamp to have an SBR. Avoid some worry and a potential headache.

Yeah. The cost of being mistaken makes $200 look like couch money.

 

[awshoot]

I would say it depends on how zealous the agents and police are in your State. I believe WA used to prohibit SBRs until fairly recently?

SBR's OK in WA, see paragraph 2: RCW 9.41.190: Unlawful firearms—Exceptions.

 

[CamoDeafie]

SBR's OK in WA, see paragraph 2: RCW 9.41.190: Unlawful firearms—Exceptions.

Right, I just remember that for a period of time, both SBR and SBS were banned in the State of Washington up until relatively recently?

 

[Dinglenutz]

At this point its probably worth skipping over the pistol and paying the $200 for the tax stamp to have an SBR.

The only issue I have with that is, at least in Oregon, I believe an SBR is not as protected as a handgun under the auspices of the concealed handgun permit. Also, $200 and also, all the NFA restrictions on portability.

 

[CamoDeafie]

SBR's OK in WA, see paragraph 2: RCW 9.41.190: Unlawful firearms—Exceptions.

Up until 2014 it apparently was illegal to own a SBR in WA. However, this article's info from 2015 seems to indicate that yes, trying to make a SBR in WA is still illegal and that the ATF would summarily deny the Form 1s.. at least in 2015. Now, not so sure at this time, anyone know for sure?

Short-Barreled Rifles in Washington State? | GUNSANDTACTICS.COM

www.gunsandtactics.com

 

[awshoot]

The only issue I have with that is, at least in Oregon, I believe an SBR is not as protected as a handgun under the auspices of the concealed handgun permit. Also, $200 and also, all the NFA restrictions on portability.

Hmm. WA has a concealed "pistol" license: RCW 9.41.070: Concealed pistol license—Application—Fee—Renewal. (<i>Effective until July 1, 2021.</i>)

The context in which I was thinking was something like this:

The Backpack Gun Project - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Chris explores the concept of a backpack gun, what it's good for and what you consider if you're exploring one yourself.

www.luckygunner.com

So in WA, you either have to take your chances with the ATF or go the SBR route and not be allowed to conceal it.

 

[wollzy]

The only issue I have with that is, at least in Oregon, I believe an SBR is not as protected as a handgun under the auspices of the concealed handgun permit. Also, $200 and also, all the NFA restrictions on portability.

The portability part is what really sucks IMO. I don't go shoot in WA, but driving across the Columbia doesn't feel like crossing state lines. So I could see myself forgetting to get my hall pass from the ATF. Its pretty much the only reason I got my Utah CHL.

 

[awshoot]

Up until 2014 it apparently was illegal to own a SBR in WA. However, this article's info from 2015 seems to indicate that yes, trying to make a SBR in WA is still illegal and that the ATF would summarily deny the Form 1s.. at least in 2015. Now, not so sure at this time, anyone know for sure?

Short-Barreled Rifles in Washington State? | GUNSANDTACTICS.COM

www.gunsandtactics.com

Well, that's that then. When I posted the RCW link, I had in the back of my mind that "not unlawful" is not identical to "legal" ... and that worry proved true. At least I know not waste time thinking about it and pricing uppers.

 

[wollzy]

The portability part is what really sucks IMO. I don't go shoot in WA, but driving across the Columbia doesn't feel like crossing state lines. So I could see myself forgetting to get my hall pass from the ATF. Its pretty much the only reason I got my Utah CHL.

I'd add that concealing an AR or something else in a pistol configuration might get you in hotwater anyways...despite the fact its legally a pistols. I don't really see a lot of LEOs going "Oh sorry sir that 8" AR chambered in 300BO has a brace and no VFG is actually a pistol so you are covered by your CHL. My mistake, be on your way and have a good day". In reality I would expect a court battle proving your innocence.

 

[awshoot]

I'd add that concealing an AR or something else in a pistol configuration might get you in hotwater anyways...despite the fact its legally a pistols. I don't really see a lot of LEOs going "Oh sorry sir that 8" AR chambered in 300BO has a brace and no VFG is actually a pistol so you are covered by your CHL. My mistake, be on your way and have a good day". In reality I would expect a court battle proving your innocence.

True -- though in my mind a backpack AR would be something for an end of the world type situation. I couldn't see it as a daily carry for normal or even for abnormal times. The problem of course, is that once you get the EOW, they won't be available, and before then, we can't keep them in our safes because we can't have them.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Measuring the Overall Length of a Pistol? ATF has Altered the Deal | RECOIL

Read: Measuring the Overall Length of a Pistol? ATF has Altered the Deal from Adam Kraut on July 5, 2019 for Recoil.

www.recoilweb.com

Okay. So. Here's what the ATF seems to be sticking to... officially.

1. To be a pistol, it must measure less than 26 inches and have a single vertical hand grip.
2. Be designed to be fired by a single hand

but the AOW definiton is...

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term "Any Other Weapon" means:

• Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive;
• A pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell;
• Weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading; and
  
• Any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.


Whereas... for a SBR at least according to the NFA...
A rifle with under 16" barrel; or a firearm "made from a rifle" with an overall length of under 26 inches

 

[Dave Workman]

AmmoLand News turned me loose on this Friday morning.
Here's the story with links to two letters Rep. Matt Gaetz and other congressmen sent to A.G. Barr and the ATF that are worth reading.

Rep. Gaetz: ‘ATF Must Stop Abusing Authority’ on Pistol Arm Braces

"It has come to our attention that ATF is now attempting to restrict some of the most popular arm brace configurations..." Letter from Reps. Gaetz, Posey, Yoho, Steube, Dunn, Rutherford, and Webster

www.ammoland.com

There are a couple of other reports at AmmoLand on this subject.

 

[The Resister]

Might be good that most gun owners don't care. My conspiracy theory side is thinking that this is being pulled by antitrumpers in the ATF a month before election in order to piss off some of his base so that they either don't vote or vote the other way.

Now, where's my tinfoil?

Post # 107 is not a theory. If you still want tinfoil however...