A-10 official issues warning over US Air Force’s ‘devastated’ Warthog fleet

[Ura-Ki]

What really needs to happen is to figure out HOW to replace the A-10 and what type of airframe that is going to require! Fast Movers don't work, never did, and everyone needs to remember that! TIME over target is another issue, your F-15 Echo burns 8 tons of fuel to go A-10 speeds vs the A-10 burning 2 tons! Payload, your fast movers ain't ( mostly) got that, ESPECIALLY the POS F-35! Everytime they try to come up with a replacement for the A-10, it endes up being a redesigned A-10!


The real core of the A-10 issue ain't the airframe it's self of the mission, its's the Gov trying to justify the 3 billion each cost of the F-35 by trying to make it work in rolls a fast mover is destined to fail at! Believer me, having worked at the knife edge of CAS, there was and remains NOTHING better then the A-10. The -15Echo does a good job, BUT, it's wasted on the mission, the F-16 does amazing for the few passes your going to get before bingo fuel or empty pylons, and the F-18 IF it has the fuel to reach the fight, does OK, but like the -16, very limited! For a time, we had the old F-111 available, talk about a ground pounder, but again, fast movers don't do well! All the latest designs seem to have propellers hanging off them, should tell you everything you need to know about the missions requirements!

My thoughts, ether start up a new assembly line and bring in new engines,, and tech, and build Brand New Shiny A-10's, or,.............
Switch to rotary wing airframes for the mission and be done with it!
Third option, build a big Twin Turbo prop with two seats and all the mission avionics the A-10 never had, make it a true CAS bird, not a tank killer, and you might just have something worth replacing the A-10 with!

 

[CamoDeafie]

Third option, build a big Twin Turbo prop with two seats and all the mission avionics the A-10 never had, make it a true CAS bird, not a tank killer, and you might just have something worth replacing the A-10 with!

FMA Pucara

Sure, not as much payload
A turboprop, modernized version of this (F7F Tigercat), using the C-130J engines might be a hoot, and with the engines I propose, probably can carry more than the A1D Skyraider ever did.. maybe as much as the A-10 does
.

 

[Ura-Ki]

FMA Pucara
View attachment 1190378
Sure, not as much payload
A turboprop, modernized version of this (F7F Tigercat), using the C-130J engines might be a hoot, and with the engines I propose, probably can carry more than the A1D Skyraider ever did.. maybe as much as the A-10 does
.
View attachment 1190379

I was just going to post about the Pucara, a fantastic design that had phenomonal potential, but was never properly developed or deployed. In a lot of ways the old Douglas A-26 Invader was the perfect tool, and with a purpose built version of that, could have been ever better then the A-10 ever was! Hell, Germany designed the right airplane for the wrong mission way back in 1943 the FW TA-154, basically an answer to the British Mosquito, but in reality, would have been a remarkable ground support bird, much like the Brit Beau Fighter! Take those designs and lessons and apply that to the modern battle field and you really got something!

 

[The Heretic]

Switch to rotary wing airframes for the mission and be done with it!

Don't helos consume a lot of fuel staying aloft and/or getting to target?

The thing that upsets me is not the replacement process, but that the military doesn't plan to have a replacement (besides fast movers) before they run out of A-10s.

The USCG did the same thing with the 52' MLBs - instead of keeping them in service, they said they could find the parts (which is complete bovine fecal matter), and then pulled them from service. It will be years before they have a replacement - meanwhile the MLBs they have can't tow the larger fishing boats, can't deal with the heaviest seas the 52s could, and don't have the range of the 52s. So they are going to use the patrol boats instead, but while those have the range and the towing capacity, they can't handle the heavy surf the 52s could.

 

[CamoDeafie]

For the Army... imagine a hybrid of the Apache and the A-10 fuselages but with ducted fans (2? 4? 3?) Similar in layout to this
DOAK model 16 VZ4A

I mean.. it's not necessarily a "fixed wing" lol well. I don't know. The MV-22 Osprey tiltrotor is USMC/USAF but not Army... probably because the USAF still says " if it flies like an aircraft (horizontal) with wings of some sort, its ours/Marines"

 

[Flopsweat]

For the Army... imagine a hybrid of the Apache and the A-10 fuselages but with ducted fans (2? 4? 3?) Similar in layout to this
DOAK model 16 VZ4AView attachment 1190407View attachment 1190408View attachment 1190409

I mean.. it's not necessarily a "fixed wing" lol well. I don't know. The MV-22 Osprey tiltrotor is USMC/USAF but not Army... probably because the USAF still says " if it flies like an aircraft (horizontal) with wings of some sort, its ours/Marines"

Can they fly with an engine out and a hole in a wing the size of a refrigerator?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Can they fly with an engine out and a hole in a wing the size of a refrigerator?

The Model.16 looks like it has a buried engine behind the cockpit, similar to a helicopter. The MV-22 has dual cross shafts for both rotors in case one engine is shot out but..... its not a CAS aircraft by any means.

 

[CamoDeafie]

The Bell X-22A design's layout might be a potential contender for a CAS vehicle thats not "an airplane" but closer to a helicopter... and with the present day quadrotor drone designs being commercially available.. it might be morw viable.. swap engines for better ones, use the body for weapons payload, optionally piloted...

 

[Ura-Ki]

Don't helos consume a lot of fuel staying aloft and/or getting to target?

The thing that upsets me is not the replacement process, but that the military doesn't plan to have a replacement (besides fast movers) before they run out of A-10s.

The USCG did the same thing with the 52' MLBs - instead of keeping them in service, they said they could find the parts (which is complete bovine fecal matter), and then pulled them from service. It will be years before they have a replacement - meanwhile the MLBs they have can't tow the larger fishing boats, can't deal with the heaviest seas the 52s could, and don't have the range of the 52s. So they are going to use the patrol boats instead, but while those have the range and the towing capacity, they can't handle the heavy surf the 52s could.

Agreed, and it's a absolute travesty on all accounts! The Coasties we're supposed to have been working with the boat yards to come up with replacements for the 52's a long time ago, but nothing happened, and now we are without those assets!

Same with the A-10, you know you will eventually run out of airframes, you know that the existing airframes have reached their end of life, but no planning was done to have a replacement ready when all that came around!

If I had to fight today, my CAS options are very limited, I know both the Army and Marines have attack helicopters available, and I could surge Fast Movers into the fight for a short period, but then what? I don't have the staying power to continue supporting those boots on the ground while I try and Cycle assets through the battle space, and that's going to cost me lots of boots! It's also one of the worst situations, being forced to pull down mission specific birds that are now off mission supporting those boots, then I have to set aside additional mission specific airframes with CAS load outs which costs me in other missions! The A-10 is but one cog in that wheel, and until there is a viable replacement, and not just Congress trying to justify getting duped into the F-35 instead of developing other airframes to do the job, Better!

 

[The Heretic]

Agreed, and it's a absolute travesty on all accounts! The Coasters we're supposed to have been working with the boat yards to come up with replacements for the 52 a long time ago, but nothing happened, and now we are without those assets!

I refuse to believe they could not find enough DD 6-71 engines and parts. It isn't like these are rare engines, albeit not made anymore. There are a lot of rebuilt crate 6-71s out there. Worst case they could replace the 6-71s with a different DD engine. And the Perkins gensets could be replaced with just about any other genset with similar specs.

No matter what they did to repair the boats, it would be a LOT cheaper than coming up with a replacement boat. There is nothing wrong with those boats that could not be repaired/replaced much much cheaper than building a new boat. They are slow but extremely robust and dependable, have much more range than a 47', and can handle heavy tows and heavy seas much better.

 

[CamoDeafie]

@The Heretic ; the 4 52' MLBs? Wikipedia lists them as still in service? I see that they have many more 47' MLBs edit. Just read up that they have been retired as of Nov 2021.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I refuse to believe they could not find enough DD 6-71 engines and parts. It isn't like these are rare engines, albeit not made anymore. There are a lot of rebuilt crate 6-71s out there. Worst case they could replace the 6-71s with a different DD engine. And the Perkins gensets could be replaced with just about any other genset with similar specs.

No matter what they did to repair the boats, it would be a LOT cheaper than coming up with a replacement boat. There is nothing wrong with those boats that could not be repaired/replaced much much cheaper than building a new boat. They are slow but extremely robust and dependable, have much more range than a 47', and can handle heavy tows and heavy seas much better.

They want the newest toys to play with, time and tide wait for no man, and those Boats are OLD! Dosnt matter that their still good and functional, they are not the newest toy!
Give me a week and unlimited funds and I'll design a better replacement, couple million dollars for my trouble and the Coasties will have a new toy that will last another 60 years!

Couple of high power 4 stroke MAN or MTU diesels, double walled aluminum hull, and Vario pitch props so you have both pulling power and speed/range. Make it self righting, and unsinkable, and able to run in all weather, and we're good! I'd prolly lengthen it to 60 feet, for added stability and range, more gear/crew/rescue space!

 

[CamoDeafie]

prolly lengthen it to 60 feet, for added stability and range, more gear/crew/rescue space!

Thats only 5 ft shorter than a 65' Small Harbor Tug cutter granted, these 11 boats left are also from the 1960s there however are the 45' Response Boat Mediums, using two diesels powering waterjet propulsion systems and they're stupid fast, very manueverable.. but they don't have the space nor the gear to do what the 52's did... and the 47' MLBs are simply more numerous to the tune of 227 in service but there's a gap between the 47' and the Marine Protector Class of 87' patrol boats that aren't fulfilled by anything I know of.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Thats only 5 ft shorter than a 65' Small Harbor Tug cutter granted, these 11 boats left are also from the 1960s there however are the 45' Response Boat Mediums, using two diesels powering waterjet propulsion systems and they're stupid fast, very manueverable.. but they don't have the space nor the gear to do what the 52's did... and the 47' MLBs are simply more numerous to the tune of 227 in service but there's a gap between the 47' and the Marine Protector Class of 87' patrol boats that aren't fulfilled by anything I know of.

The biggest thing the 52's did was small station/harbor towing and rescue work, something the MLB's are not all that good at, the correct solution would have been to make the MLB's bigger and have both the power and speed, but no, they chose to have multiple boats to do multiple missions!

 

[The Heretic]

@The Heretic ; the 4 52' MLBs? Wikipedia lists them as still in service? I see that they have many more 47' MLBs edit. Just read up that they have been retired as of Nov 2021.

The 52s, Victory, Triumph, Invincible and Intrepid have been removed from the water and are no longer being used.

 

[The Heretic]

They want the newest toys to play with, time and tide wait for no man, and those Boats are OLD! Dosnt matter that their still good and functional, they are not the newest toy!
Give me a week and unlimited funds and I'll design a better replacement, couple million dollars for my trouble and the Coasties will have a new toy that will last another 60 years!

Couple of high power 4 stroke MAN or MTU diesels, double walled aluminum hull, and Vario pitch props so you have both pulling power and speed/range. Make it self righting, and unsinkable, and able to run in all weather, and we're good! I'd prolly lengthen it to 60 feet, for added stability and range, more gear/crew/rescue space!

Canada’s New 62 foot Motor Lifeboat

Canada is building twelve large, relatively fast, self-righting Motor Lifeboats. These are the “Bay” class and the first are now making an appearance. Reportedly they will be “cap…

chuckhillscgblog.net

 

[WAW44]

It had "no opposing force" in the gulf mostly because we had air superiority due to fighters. That doesn't make the A10 invalid, it makes it (or something similar) part of a team. We have bombers, fighters, tankers, AEW aircraft, drones, and CAS aircraft etc., working together. The fact that any part of that team does well in the role it was designed for, doesn't make the rest of the system invalid.

No, you're right, not invalid. Redundant. The plane is great against cave dwellers with AKs and RPGs. It would suffer against a modern armored and defended ground force. The ROI is not there for multiple specialized platforms anymore.

If you want some reading on the history of the program: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA530838.pdf

And RAND'S CAS study, from 2017: https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR1233.html

 

[CamoDeafie]

As an aside, the Soviets lost several SU-25s to Stingers in the 1980s in Afghanistan... and then other countries lost more of them in Syria, Georgia, the Balkans, maybe a few other places.. because the SU-25 Frogfoot doesn't have as much armor, nor as much redundancy and good design... its more similar to the YA-9 competitor than the A-10. But.. we have lost a small number of A-10s to SAMs and Anti-air artillery, as well as crash landings and write-offs from extreme damage.

Before Op Desert Storm, Air Force was considering replacing A-10s with the F-16 CAS variant, but after Op Desert Storm, chose not to. Then again in the Balkans era, considered getting more F-15Es to replace A-10s... didn't happen. Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria... and talks were of replacing A-10 with the F-35... but the problem again.. the F-35 does not have the loiter capacity, the durability, the weapons stowage capacity, nor the particular performance that the A-10 does to do the CAS mission.
Redundant? I don't think so, at least not what would satisfy the Army on the ground who are the guys requesting specifically the A-10 support and not the F-16Cs/F-15Es or F-35s. It is midterms election year though and it sounds like certain congress critters are trying to get more funding/elections for keeping or rebuilding or making new tooling to manufacture new A-10s if possible....

 

[Ura-Ki]

If I was designing a new SAR/Towing Salvage vessel for the Coast Guard, I would model it after what the Germans came up with, minus the daughter boat, substituted with towing! Maybe combine the designs of the Brit and German boats, get the best performance possible!

 

[The Heretic]

The plane is great against cave dwellers with AKs and RPGs.

I seem to recall that it did well against Iraqi armor and other vehicles, besides being good CAS against non-mounted troops and emplacements?