594 PITA--household iron

[Diamondback]

Well, I'm moving in with a couple semi-invalid relatives (household is going to be my aunt, my mother and myself), and 594 now imposes a special kind of nuisance.

It seems the only way to share "legal access" is to establish a trust, which gets expensive fast--the alternate option that I could see would be to purchase three identical blanks, and each of us build our own AR lowers, then if push meets shove challenge the prosecutor with "all three of us know our way around a mill and drill-press, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that the Designated Shooter wasn't the one who manufactured the receiver and assembled the firearm since there's no requirement to mark firearms built for personal use unless you decide to transfer them--hell, even WE don't know which is which!"

Additional fun on trusts... the AFL factor. I'd need ability for individual gun owners to enter or withdraw our weapons from the trust at will, ditto to add or remove additional trustees. I have two very close Foreign National friends--my gal's Canadian, and I have a young lady friend from Germany who thinks if she had a way to get it home legally building her own AR here would be fun--that want me to teach them to shoot someday, so they're candidates for addition to the trust. At least we won't have NFA stuff to fight with, which should trim the PITA down a little.

Here's all a gun shop I contacted re an M1 Carbine I was looking at could suggest on the subject when I asked them for advice as an aside:

For the 594 law questions... The way the law is written you cannot have dual ownership of a firearm. The way to go about multiple people legally using a firearm would be to obtain a gun trust and have all authorized users added to the trust. You can contact Northwest Gun Law Group to set something like this up.

Anybody out there in Washingtonistan (aka Burn-in-Hellifornia Del Norte) have experience with trusts or Alien Firearms License matters that might help me shape my discussions with the Ambulance Chasers about keeping my family and friends from being made examples of?

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[Diamondback]

Advice would be appreciated, keep the sarcasm and snark to other threads, please. Neither of my rels voted for 594, and I even turned several of the liberal librarians I work with into "No" votes.

 

[BoonDocks36]

1. Go to the wa.gov website, Download 594, Study it.

2. If on a tablet, ie. iPad, buy the App "LegalHeat" and download for Washington...

Their "Credentials" on explanation of State Gun Laws is ~Up There~ ....

3. Hire a Lawyer.

Not trying to be snarky, or whatever, but asking for Specific Legal Advice from unknown Sources gets you what you Paid for it.

I use LegalHeat on my iPad, and have updated it Twice.

It takes the Legal mumble Jumble Lawyerese talk and says its meaning in Plain English....

Hope that helps....

philip, from the Great Pacific NorthWet.....

 

[Diamondback]

Point, Philip--I'm not asking for specific legal advice, but for thoughts to help guide me when I *am* meeting with the legal weasels seeking SLA, ideas for what kinds of questions I need to ask or lessons from others' prior experiences to help me get a better idea of the minefield ahead so that whoever I call about building a trust can help me with less billable hours required.

Anyone ever work with Dennis Brislawn at Northwest Gun Law Group and have thoughts to offer about his services?

 

[jbett98]

Dennis saved an M1A1 Thomson and Mac 11 with a Bowers suppressor from being destroyed by the ATF for me, so I can truthfully say that he is the best lawyer for these type of issues.

 

[BoonDocks36]

Point, Philip--I'm not asking for specific legal advice, but for thoughts to help guide me when I *am* meeting with the legal weasels seeking SLA, ideas for ~SNIPPED~ to offer about his services?

You could of fooled me... Oh wait, you did.

Sorry I bothered to write.... But I will leave it there.

philip sometimes it just isn't worth trying to help someone....

 

[Diamondback]

OK, let me try a different tack, hopefully less seeming "specific to my case"... for you who have trusts, or have had individuals in your lives who needed AFL's, what did you do that you wish you hadn't, or what didn't you do that you wish you had?

Not trying to call anyone out or be argumentative, but on a freelancer's budget attorneys' hourly rates are an even bigger bite out of the paycheck than to most people's, so I want to learn from what others are glad they did or wish they'd done differently and have a list of the Must Asks ready to go from Minute One of consultation and try to get as much benefit out of the hourly rate as possible.

I apologize if I came off a little peevish, I'm just in over my head with no idea where to start--I'm one of those sorts that doesn't like to set things in motion without at least half a plan first.

 

[Wayne]

I am not sure that under I 594 you would have a problem. What part of it do you think applies to your situation ?

 

[Diamondback]

@ Philip, I've got LegalHeat flagged for "Look Into"--the headsup on it is much appreciated.

My understanding was "any transfer no matter how temporary outside a very narrow group of exceptions"--so my mother might be covered under Immediate Family, but my aunt would not, and my two friends (one of whom I hope to woo and settle down with) would almost certainly not be covered so they'd be stuck with whatever the range had available for rent. (I rather doubt that the monkey-humping pusbags in Olympia would be kosher with me "marrying" them for the duration of their stays, and even if they were I'm not sure *I'd* be OK with cheapening a holy institution by using it as an end-run.)

 

[Wayne]

@ Philip, I've got LegalHeat flagged for "Look Into"--the headsup on it is much appreciated.

My understanding was "any transfer no matter how temporary outside a very narrow group of exceptions"--so my mother might be covered under Immediate Family, but my aunt would not, and my two friends (one of whom I hope to woo and settle down with) would almost certainly not be covered so they'd be stuck with whatever the range had available for rent. (I rather doubt that the monkey-humping pusbags in Olympia would be kosher with me "marrying" them for the duration of their stays, and even if they were I'm not sure *I'd* be OK with cheapening a holy institution by using it as an end-run.)

Your Mom and Aunt could be covered under SEC 4 part A/C. Your friends, That is another part of the story you left out so, no they can't use your guns under 594.

 

[jbett98]

If you have a gun trust and if you are the Trustor of said gun trust, and if you have named a few of your friends in the gun trusts schedule B , then you should be able to issue a "Grant of Use" document that allows those friends to have physical possession of said firearms for a specific amount of time outlined in the Grant of Use statement.

 

[GunnyG]

... (I rather doubt that the monkey-humping pusbags in Olympia would be kosher with me "marrying" them for the duration of their stays, and even if they were I'm not sure *I'd* be OK with cheapening a holy institution by using it as an end-run.)

Just so long as they got paid, the state doesn't care if you use a church.



RCW 26.60.025
Definition — Domestic partnership.
Whenever the term "domestic partnership" is used in the Revised Code of Washington it shall be defined to mean "state registered domestic partnership" and whenever the term "domestic partner" is used in the Revised Code of Washington it shall be defined to mean "state registered domestic partner."


[2008 c 6 § 1201.]

 

[bakersman345]

My understanding was under 594 there is a exeption to transfers for "self defense" so if someone you know needed a guy for protection then you could lend it to them. Also I could argue if your aunt is living with you she counts a immediate family -maybe-

As for the ar lowers you only need one whoever pulls the trigger says it's their's. (Unless they check for prints)

 

[Deebow]

Do you live with an ATF Agent or a State Trooper assigned to the Firearms Unit? Is your housemate a Deputy DA in the county you live? If the answer is no; then I wouldn't give a fudge-knuckle. Do what you want. No one will care.

Are you planning on inviting the State Police Firearms Unit out for a range day? Setting aside a day to drive drunk in reverse through downtown Seattle while waving a gun around? If not, then why would you have to explain anything to a prosecutor? Why are you worried about being made "an example" of?

The only special kind of nuisance you are running into is worrying about something that is never going to happen.

 

[donaldc]

My understanding was under 594 there is a exeption to transfers for "self defense" so if someone you know needed a guy for protection then you could lend it to them. Also I could argue if your aunt is living with you she counts a immediate family -maybe-

As for the ar lowers you only need one whoever pulls the trigger says it's their's. (Unless they check for prints)

Unfortunately with this turd of a law, it isn't that simple:

(4) (c) A temporary transfer of possession of a firearm if such transfer is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to the person to whom the firearm is transferred if: (i) The temporary transfer only lasts as long as immediately necessary to prevent such imminent death or great bodily harm; and (ii) The person to whom the firearm is transferred is not prohibited from possessing firearms under state or federal law;

 

[bakersman345]

Unfortunately with this turd of a law, it isn't that simple:

I see. I just re read the law the picture attached shows that his aunt would be considered immediate family.

 

[Diamondback]

It also says "family, for bona fide gift"--which I could see some vermin assault-lawyer arguing neither home-defense "grab first available" nor range "borrow mine" qualify as.

Bear in mind, Washington state does have one county prosecutor already actively under recall for Prosecutorial Misconduct...

 

[ocarolan]

Do you live with an ATF Agent or a State Trooper assigned to the Firearms Unit? Is your housemate a Deputy DA in the county you live? If the answer is no; then I wouldn't give a fudge-knuckle. Do what you want. No one will care.

Yes in terms of legal outcome. Yet to me it's best to follow the law, so friends and family can always trust you to do so. A square-shooter reputation is usually a Good Thing. Also a new shooter needs to be mentored to follow every gun law exactly to avoid becoming an inadvertent felon - concealed carry, open carry, use of force, and now (for better or worse) gun transfer.

 

[donaldc]

I see. I just re read the law the picture attached shows that his aunt would be considered immediate family.

Only if the transfer was a bona fide gift (meaning a true or genuine gift).

That section can be read as:
A transfer between immediate family members that is a bona fide gift;

Where "family members" are defined as: spouses, domestic partners, parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles

 

[Diamondback]

That and, in the aftermath of a Defensive Shooting, you can assume questions will be raised about the weapon used, whether through ignorance, ambition or agenda. If it's my name on the 4473 but my mother--or more legally nasty, my gal (who just happens to be a Canadian citizen)--who draws the unfortunate responsibility of Darwining The Dirtbag...