36 years ago today....

[RVTECH]

The 'Subway Shooter' - Bernie Goetz made history.

Read More

 

[Alexx1401]

It was always a damn shame this did not start to happen daily there for a while. If it did crime would all but come to a stop. Again though people there make the choice to live like they do.

 

[P7M13]

Where Is Bernhard Goetz Now?

Bernhard Goetz is known by his pseudonym, ‘The Subway Vigilante’, after he shot four black men in a subway train in a situation of alleged defense. After committing the crime, Goetz went into hiding. During this time, his public image grew to such an extent that he was being considered as a...

thecinemaholic.com

 

[Tlock]

I watched a bit of the video, I was 1 year old when that happened so I researched it a little more. Interesting case for sure, I'd like to see crime rates from 1984 vs 2023

 

[Certaindeaf]

Where Is Bernhard Goetz Now?

Bernhard Goetz is known by his pseudonym, ‘The Subway Vigilante’, after he shot four black men in a subway train in a situation of alleged defense. After committing the crime, Goetz went into hiding. During this time, his public image grew to such an extent that he was being considered as a...

thecinemaholic.com

."He was acquitted of all the charges pinned against him except the illegal procession of firearms for which he served time in prison for about a year. His attitude baffled many as in his confession tape he said: "If I had more bullets, I would have shot them all again and again. My problem was I ran out of bullets. I was going to gouge one of the guy's eyes out with my keys afterward.".

Procession, lol

 

[ma96782]

What does Wiki have to say about the incident?

1984 New York City Subway shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Aloha, Mark

PS....YES. There are some that hate and some that love Wiki. Whatever. So Be It.

 

[Koda]

"Seeing that they had both been shot, he spun back to check on the latter two. Goetz noticed that the youth who had been standing still was now sitting on a bench and seemed unhurt. As Goetz told the police, "I said `[y]ou seem to be all right, here's another'", and he then fired the shot which severed Cabey's spinal cord. Goetz added that "if I was a little more under self-control * * * I would have put the barrel against his forehead and fired." He also admitted that "if I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again.""

not really a case to get behind...

People v. Goetz

People v. Goetz - 68 N.Y.2d 96, 497 N.E.2d 41

law.justia.com

 

[P7M13]

"Seeing that they had both been shot, he spun back to check on the latter two. Goetz noticed that the youth who had been standing still was now sitting on a bench and seemed unhurt. As Goetz told the police, "I said `[y]ou seem to be all right, here's another'", and he then fired the shot which severed Cabey's spinal cord. Goetz added that "if I was a little more under self-control * * * I would have put the barrel against his forehead and fired." He also admitted that "if I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again.""

not really a case to get behind...

People v. Goetz

People v. Goetz - 68 N.Y.2d 96, 497 N.E.2d 41

law.justia.com

In a jury by your peers, I think New Yorkers understand rage. They voted to acquit.

 

[Koda]

In a jury by your peers, I think New Yorkers understand rage. They voted to acquit.

Should rage justify using lethal force?

 

[P7M13]

Should rage justify using lethal force?

Between you, me, a significant number of members here, and as I understand from the Hagakure, no.
That decision was not up to us, but to his peers from the community. I don't know what the vote was, but evidently enough of them thought it was justified.

 

[Koda]

Between you, me, a significant number of members here, and as I understand from the Hagakure, no.
That decision was not up to us, but to his peers from the community. I don't know what the vote was, but evidently enough of them thought it was justified.

Side note: I dont know if that testimony was submitted in the trial (not going to look it up).
I always favor the crime victim in these cases, they chose to rob him a victim should never face consequences for defending themselves. That would have been a very tough case to be a juror on though if his testimony was known. Somewhere theres a line and rage has never been on the justified side of it.

 

[Tlock]

Side note: I dont know if that testimony was submitted in the trial (not going to look it up).
I always favor the crime victim in these cases, they chose to rob him a victim should never face consequences for defending themselves. That would have been a very tough case to be a juror on though if his testimony was known. Somewhere theres a line and rage has never been on the justified side of it.

City's would burn if that happened now! St Floyd of fentinal × 100!! The country has changed so much since 1984 and not for the better IMO

 

[Andy54Hawken]

If...such a small word with such a huge impact...
If they choose not to rob Goetz...they would not have been shot.

With that said...
Goetz's testimony about shooting again and again...gouging out an eye etc....
Does not sit well with me.
It strikes me as bordering on a loss of control

The following is not to brag or boast...Nor to try and sound like a Badazz...
It stated simply to explain my perspective...
I have killed before...never in a "rage" ...That said , anger was one of the emotions I felt when being shot at in combat.
However...
I was angry at being shot at...I was angry at the enemy for doing so...
But I was not angry at the enemy for simply being the enemy.
I did what was needed in order to survive and to make sure those around me did the same.
It was a controlled use of violence .
Controlled use of violence is extremely important in combat...otherwise you end up with an armed mob.

Granted ...
I am speaking of combat...and combat is very personal...everyone who experiences it...will have different thoughts on it...
As well as more than likely having different thoughts on it over time.

Anger at crime and criminals...along with the seemingly lack of concern about the victims of the same...
I understand.
However it is wise to make sure that a moment of anger does not lead you into a lifetime of regret.
Andy
Edit to add :
It is wise not to become that which you wish to destroy.

 

[Koda]

City's would burn if that happened now! St Floyd of fentinal × 100!! The country has changed so much since 1984 and not for the better IMO

Nowadays your expected to comply and are prosecuted if you fight back. If you comply and get shot and killed anyways its just more evidence we need to prohibit guns.

 

[DunRanull]

"Seeing that they had both been shot, he spun back to check on the latter two. Goetz noticed that the youth who had been standing still was now sitting on a bench and seemed unhurt. As Goetz told the police, "I said `[y]ou seem to be all right, here's another'", and he then fired the shot which severed Cabey's spinal cord. Goetz added that "if I was a little more under self-control * * * I would have put the barrel against his forehead and fired." He also admitted that "if I had had more [bullets], I would have shot them again, and again, and again.""

not really a case to get behind...

People v. Goetz

People v. Goetz - 68 N.Y.2d 96, 497 N.E.2d 41

law.justia.com

They had it coming. Goetz talked too much.

 

[ma96782]

Nowadays your expected to comply and are prosecuted if you fight back. If you comply and get shot and killed anyways its just more evidence we need to prohibit guns.

And SPOONS.

Why?


Aloha, Mark

 

[doninoregon]

I read a detailed account of this once. Bernie Goetz had previously been mugged and severely beaten. After that, he started carrying and would frequently mentally rehearse how he would respond to a mugging attempt. When confronted on the subway he didn't stop to think, just decided what order to shoot them in and went at it.

His lawyer argued that Bernie didn't actually say "You don't look so bad, here's another', but was just thinking it, but during police interrogation mistakenly recalled that he had actually said it. This gave the jury leeway to decide that the last shot wasn't an act of premeditated attempted murder.

Crime was extremely high in NYC then, this was before Giuliani cleaned it up.

 

[Alexx1401]

Should rage justify using lethal force?

To me? The answer is often going to be yes. I have of course seen a LOT of material put out by media about this case since it happened. "Media" has from day one made him out to be someone who randomly tried to kill some poor boys just going to the park. The fact that a jury there refused to convict? Tells me "media" is probably not telling me the truth.
Now the taped confession he gave? While insanely stupid is really not too far off from what a massive amount of gun owners do after a shoot. VERY few are able to keep their mouth shut and let a lawyer talk. If this guy had done that? Chances are his case would have been FAR easier to win.

 

[Artilleryman]

Should rage justify using lethal force?

I don't think any rational person would think rage justifies lethal force, or any force for that matter. But…I respectfully say that your question, as worded, implies rage is the only factor- which is not the case. Goetz had been previously violently attacked, beaten & robbed. And really, even if he hadn't, he was clearly put in a situation where lethal force was fully justified. Four thugs cornering him on a subway with felonious intent (significant disparity of force, no way to escape, clear threats, etc,). That makes any rage perfectly understandable. But rage or not, the situation was a textbook example of justified lethal force for self defense. Yeah the guy said a bunch of dumb*** stuff afterwards, no argument there. But the fact is none of that changes the fact that he had every reason to believe those four dirtbags we're going to lay a serious hurting on him if he did not stop them.