Off -Duty Portland Security Guard Sentencing gives five years after using legally concealed firearm

[Knobgoblin]

Some very big guesses on my part. Camera caught some bad behavior prior to shoot. Instigating or just plain not leaving when the fight started. Hard looks and other flexing probably went on for a bit. Castle doctrine don't apply at Da Club .Carrying a gun on a night out drinking is bad for your " innocence ".

 

[Catfishmoon]

He's about to get attacked, you don't think that's enough for self defense?

If the prosecutor decides to press charges against the shooter, the real question becomes does that local jury think it is okay to take a gun to a fistfight? My guess is that would vary depending on the people of the jury.
Personally, I have no problem with a person using a firearm to stop from being assaulted. However, what you hear constantly from attorneys on YouTube who specialize in 2A issues, is the use of "equivalent force". I imagine issues like size, age, gender, physical ability, etc. would influence a jury.

 

[Member 53328]

If the prosecutor decides to press charges against the shooter, the real question becomes does that local jury think it is okay to take a gun to a fistfight? My guess is that would vary depending on the people of the jury.
Personally, I have no problem with a person using a firearm to stop from being assaulted. However, what you hear constantly from attorneys on YouTube who specialize in 2A issues, is the use of "equivalent force". I imagine issues like size, age, gender, physical ability, etc. would influence a jury.

Correct. Those would all be a huge factor. Along with the totality of the circumstance. In Oregon I don't think you're winning that court case. Now in Texas or Florida you may have a fighting chance. Maybe.

 

[Yarome]

I know some people feel, worst case, you should just take your beating and not use all force available to you. If you can't hold your own and get laid out... that's your own fault and it's not justifiable to use deadly force just because you're getting your a** kicked.

That assumes a lot. It assumes that even if a weapon is not immediately visible in the split seconds they are charging you that they are not, in fact, armed.That's assuming that your hand to hand training will be equal or better than your opponents. That's also assuming that if you just take your beating that the perp is going to stop at some point before permanently maiming or killing you. That's also assuming that allowing an attacker into your personal space, while carrying, that you will be able to prevent them from discovering your firearm, not gaining control of it or using it against you in the heat of the moment.

After all, he's one of the really "nice" gangbangers, probably has a high level of self control, makes good choices and would rather be catching butterfly's than giving you a beat down, right? All you have to do it call "time out" once you've had enough and he will be required to stop, right?

The last and most fatal assumption is that once you have allowed an attacker into your personal space in a hand to hand confrontation... subsequently giving up any tactical advantage... that you still retain your options to escalate the force response by somehow getting to your firearm and bringing it on target while attempting to fend off an ongoing physical attack.

The only way that "works"... it to be stronger, faster, have more hand to hand combat training, a bit of luck... and your prayers answered that none of his buddies join in on you and they aren't armed either. They aren't called "gangs" for no reason.

When being charged, giving up all tactical advantage and relying on your ego and a bum load of assumptions to save you is straight up "piss poor planning" and tactical stupidity, IMHO.

Obviously, the best option is avoidance and de-escalation, but that is not always going to be effective, and in many cases, not even a choice available to you.


With that guy getting 5 years... I think it highly likely there were other mitigating factors we are unaware of that placed himself "at fault" to some degree.

And to note: Any shoot has the potential to have hindsight that might land a person into a bit of trouble, but in contrast to being dead, or worse, failing to protect a loved one... that's one bill that I would be willing to pay. YMMV

 

[Alexx1401]

If anyone can find the articles of when this happened I would be interested to read them. This is another one of those there has to be more to this.

 

[solv3nt]

If anyone can find the articles of when this happened I would be interested to read them. This is another one of those there has to be more to this.

The other article says the brother was a gang banger of the opposing gang to the dead gang banger. They are insinuating that self defense isn't legal due to the gang affiliation, basically stating that you used deadly force in a brawl.

I am curious what other information is available.

 

[BPS2271]

The other article says the brother was a gang banger of the opposing gang to the dead gang banger. They are insinuating that self defense isn't legal due to the gang affiliation, basically stating that you used deadly force in a brawl.

I am curious what other information is available.

I think what they are insinuating is that his story is B.S.

 

[solv3nt]

I think what they are insinuating is that his story is B.S.

I'm insinuating that the stories are extremely lacking for those that weren't in the courtroom or at the scene.

 

[Alexx1401]

I'm insinuating that the stories are extremely lacking for those that weren't in the courtroom or at the scene.

That's what I was thinking too. I figure there has got to be a lot here they are leaving out.

 

[P7M13]

Jones grew up in Vancouver alongside an identical twin brother and two younger siblings,

29 year old gang banger with TEN kids

If I read correctly, the deceased, Trayton Jones, is one of ten kids. I'd be interested in knowing the twin's whereabouts, as he is not mentioned in either article.

 

[solv3nt]

The only thing that the daily dead fish wrapper was consistent on is the fact that the shooter was legally licensed to conceal.

 

[Member 53328]

I know some people feel, worst case, you should just take your beating and not use all force available to you. If you can't hold your own and get laid out... that's your own fault and it's not justifiable to use deadly force just because you're getting your a** kicked.

That assumes a lot. It assumes that even if a weapon is not immediately visible in the split seconds they are charging you that they are not, in fact, armed.That's assuming that your hand to hand training will be equal or better than your opponents. That's also assuming that if you just take your beating that the perp is going to stop at some point before permanently maiming or killing you. That's also assuming that allowing an attacker into your personal space, while carrying, that you will be able to prevent them from discovering your firearm, not gaining control of it or using it against you in the heat of the moment.

After all, he's one of the really "nice" gangbangers, probably has a high level of self control, makes good choices and would rather be catching butterfly's than giving you a beat down, right? All you have to do it call "time out" once you've had enough and he will be required to stop, right?

The last and most fatal assumption is that once you have allowed an attacker into your personal space in a hand to hand confrontation... subsequently giving up any tactical advantage... that you still retain your options to escalate the force response by somehow getting to your firearm and bringing it on target while attempting to fend off an ongoing physical attack.

The only way that "works"... it to be stronger, faster, have more hand to hand combat training, a bit of luck... and your prayers answered that none of his buddies join in on you and they aren't armed either. They aren't called "gangs" for no reason.

When being charged, giving up all tactical advantage and relying on your ego and a bum load of assumptions to save you is straight up "piss poor planning" and tactical stupidity, IMHO.

Obviously, the best option is avoidance and de-escalation, but that is not always going to be effective, and in many cases, not even a choice available to you.


With that guy getting 5 years... I think it highly likely there were other mitigating factors we are unaware of that placed himself "at fault" to some degree.

And to note: Any shoot has the potential to have hindsight that might land a person into a bit of trouble, but in contrast to being dead, or worse, failing to protect a loved one... that's one bill that I would be willing to pay. YMMV

You're making just as many assumptions….. you also blew quite a few points way out proportion. But that's your opinion which is fine.

Shoot when you want. Let me know how it plays out.

Internet vs real world conflict/scenarios.

There is a reason why you should have more tools on your belt and in your head than just a gun. Force continuum.

We all have different mindsets though. And that's fine.

 

[edzz]

If I read correctly, the deceased, Trayton Jones, is one of ten kids. I'd be interested in knowing the twin's whereabouts, as he is not mentioned in either article.

Not that it really matters however I believe Trayton had 3 siblings and spawned 10 for the state to support.

From OP,
"Jones grew up in Vancouver alongside an identical twin brother and two younger siblings, according to his sister, Consuelo Aguilar. He had 10 children and served as the extended family's "protector," she said.

 

[P7M13]

Not that it really matters however I believe Trayton had 3 siblings and spawned 10 for the state to support.

From OP,
"Jones grew up in Vancouver alongside an identical twin brother and two younger siblings, according to his sister, Consuelo Aguilar. He had 10 children and served as the extended family's "protector," she said.

Thank you for that correction.

 

[Koda]

You are on the street and randomly attached by an attacker without a weapon. You fear death or serious injury, you do not believe you are justified in lethal force?

Sort version is yes, but this assumes other factors like disparity in force/size or other deadly threats like verbally "im going to kill you".

The problem with this hypothetical is it lacks the context of what caused the attack. A random charge out of no where for no reason is extremely rare. Theres usually verbal or other context at play and then the question is why didnt the good guy who knows hes armed with a lethal weapon make an attempt to leave or not reply insults back. The good guy doesn't get the privilege of "saving face" otherwise they lose the defense of imminent fear and reasonableness. I think this trips people up even in stand your ground states, you dont have the privilege of escalating the fight verbally or furtively or you lose immenence and reasonableness even if you didnt start the argument. I can see this "trap" being more of an issue at bars and clubs than randomly anywhere else.

 

[Cavedweller]

If anyone can find the articles of when this happened I would be interested to read them. This is another one of those there has to be more to this.

Articles from the time are actually less informative:

Man shot outside Shake Bar dies

Police ask public to help identify suspect, who remains at large after early Friday killing.

www.portlandtribune.com

Murder suspect an armed guard with no criminal history

A man accused in a fatal shooting in Northwest Portland has no criminal history, no mental health issues and was a security guard who recently was certified to carry a gun. Willie Mitchel…

www.koin.com

This one, from several months later, seems to have the most info:

He fired a fatal shot outside a Portland nightclub. Was it murder or self-defense?

The night of Willie Mitchell’s 23rd birthday began with family and friends at a club in downtown Portland. It ended with him firing a single, fatal round at a stranger.

www.oregonlive.com

I think it's interesting that he was indicted by a grand jury 4 months after his arrest. Suggests to me there may have been political forces in play.

 

[Member 53328]

All I will say is if you use your firearm in a self defense scenario you better be able to articulate dam well why you did so. And if you were any form of instigator or participant in the confrontation then good luck.

Peacocking gets you nowhere. Drop the ego and walk away or deescalate the situation.

Use of force is looked at through an objective lens. Not a subjective one.

 

[Koda]

Use of force is looked at through an objective lens. Not a subjective one.

IMO "reasonableness" is highly subjective.

 

[Member 53328]

IMO "reasonableness" is highly subjective.

Reasonableness is subjective to the defender but the jury will look at it through an objective lens. Cause it will be impossible to have the jury see what you saw, heard, felt or the totality of the circumstance.

They will only see the evidence presented. That's why it would be very favorable to show that you attempted to deescalate the situation, create distance, etc. exhaust all means within reason (that doesn't mean you have to touch every level in the force continuum) before going to deadly force.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

It would be safe to assume that both gang members were armed with firearms.

Print shop owner shot and killed in double homicide outside SE Portland strip club

William "Billy" Peters, 40, was shot and killed Saturday night outside the Southeast Portland strip club in the 8300 block of Southeast McLoughlin Boulevard. He had gone there with family and friends after celebrating his daughter's 4th birthday earlier in the day.

www.oregonlive.com

Avoid stupid places, with stupid people at stupid times. If you do have to go out to party, then have a designated carrier who is not going to drink.