2 shoot and kill each other in road rage incident (both CHL holders)

[solv3nt]

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[accessbob]

Well, the anti's will love this. No matter that there are millions who carry and don't do this it still confirms (in their minds) that CC will spawn shootouts in the streets.

 

[solv3nt]

Hey Bob, 1,500 posts exactly! Congratulations!

 

[Brutus57]

Someone really needs to highlight that a study showed that cops had just as many firearm crimes as citizens with valid concealed carry licenses. iIRC .003 per cent.
Brutus out

 

[CoastRange57]

2 people carrying guns with probably little or no training in situational awareness, or how to conduct themselves in society. The fact they were carrying guns is completely secondary to the fact that both were obviously prone to violent and confrontational behavior, one by the tailgating, then the escalation to road rage by following the other person into a parking lot and choosing to have a confrontation instead of leaving the scene or never stopping. Any time any one person or 2 people seek to confront one another over a perceived wrong, the potential for this exists. Both are to blame, at least one person had the chance to leave scene even after pulling into a lot. In this case 2 pre staging events had happened, ( tailgating and pulling into the lot), so the next steps were very likely going to be violent. Stopping it at the first 2 events and the situation never happens.

Knowing what vehicles are around you and having an escape strategy at stop lights or other choke points and being mentally and physically prepared to flee the scene of trouble rapidly is going to be better. I have practiced this very thing many times.

How many of you get closer than a half a car length to the car in front of you or at least the distance you need to turn into an opposite lane at a fairly high rate ??

Way more to this story that is being reported in a lousy paragraph or two.

 

[ocarolan]

Note on facebook, Pullum's niece writes:

The pt cruiser was following close behind the tuarus (my amazing uncle) ... the tuarus pulled into the car wash, of which u can see bc the pt cruiser is a bit behind the tuarus. The driver of the pt cruiser got out and shot my uncle 3and times in the chest while my aunt and my grandmother were in the car... my uncle then shot the man as he ran away.... its horrible that something soo stupid can take an amazing man like this.... very tragic

I still feel like Pullum should not have stopped, and should have driven away when Taylor approached his vehicle. As you all know, we who CC have an obligation to avoid dangerous situations. We have an obligation to lose face and walk away in any confrontation.



56 year old Robert Taylor was driving a Chrysler P-T Cruiser. The other driver killed was 43 year old James Pullum, who was driving a Ford Taurus. According to Police, Pullum had two passengers in his vehicle, but neither was injured.

 

[Brutus57]

Maybe they were both off their meds. We need more details, how many shots fired, revolver vs semi, what cal... Etc. etc. it would be interesting to hear what the passengers had to say about the whole incident. Darwin clearly reared his ugly head in this one.

Brutus out

 

[CoastRange57]

As you all know, we who CC have an obligation to avoid dangerous situations. We have an obligation to lose face and walk away in any confrontation.

Exactly. And there is absolutely no losing face at all. Walking / running / fleeing the scene of a confrontation is not losing face. It is doing the correct thing for your self preservation. If you are a student of confrontational analysis and situations, removing yourself from the situation is the very first thing you think of and try to execute. You only go to defensive or offensive actions or go to arms when you are unable to extract yourself from danger or threat, by leaving the scene of such.

I am fortunate that I have trained in those situations, and in particular driving skills in operating emergency vehicles that allow me to use a vehicle to flee, and to use that vehicle and its placement for my protection. I still go out on back roads or private roads and refresh these skills a couple times per year. If you tailgate me, I simply pull over and let you by. Chances are you will still be sitting at the stop light when I pull up behind you.

Not dropping the bird on you, not brake checking you nothing. If you choose to follow me, then I will leave and head towards a safe location in a rather aggressive manner, that if some one choose to follow me at that rate, then it is going to the next level. I will always seek out LEO in these cases.

Sad that two individuals died and family members had to watch them die for something as f***ed up as tailgating.

 

[Liberty97045]

Sounds like only one driver was at fault. The guy in the first car may have been justified as the tailgater was the aggressor.

 

[Trailboss]

Tragic, but glad that James Pullum was able to return fire at 56 year old Robert Taylor. Sounds like Taylor was out of control and a killer waiting to happen. The world is a better place now that he's dead and sad that the world has lost a good man James Pullum.

RIP James Pullum.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

The aggressive driver could have had a pistol in his car without a CC license.

 

[CoastRange57]

Sounds like only one driver was at fault. The guy in the first car may have been justified as the tailgater was the aggressor.

Tailgating or aggressive driving is justification for shooting ?? Be a lot of dead people in this world if that is the case. If he had not pulled over, but analyzed the situation better,and made a choice NOT to enter a confrontation, he would still be alive today.

If someone is following you, pulling over and entering a confrontation is the LAST F*****G THING you should do. Getting away by any means possible should be your focus. But that is just me.

 

[solv3nt]

Tailgating or aggressive driving is justification for shooting ?? Be a lot of dead people in this world if that is the case.

If someone is following you, pulling over and entering a confrontation is the LAST FU****G THING you should do. Getting away by any means possible should be your focus. But that is just me.

I think that you missed the point. It seems that he was saying that he was shot at, therefore he was justified in using deadly force in the protection of his own life.

 

[Botte Hork]

Another good reason to stay calm and polite in the car and if someone tries to instigate, just let it slide off.

 

[CoastRange57]

I think that you missed the point. It seems that he was saying that he was shot at, therefore he was justified in using deadly force in the protection of his own life.

I get the point. If he felt that level of threat, the return shooting MAY have been justified. He however put himself in that position, by pulling over and responding to the aggressors interviewing actions. If he had simply driven away, that stops the intended crime or action from happening at the first step, and it never proceeds to the second step and a required reaction to the aggressor.

Every criminal interaction with a person or event has at least 2 precursor events that lead up to the actual implementation of the criminal act. If you recognize at least one of these events, you can stop the interaction from happening. If it gets to step 2 with no changes, it is very difficult to extract yourself without some level of offensive action on your part. A criminal interviews their victims to determine if they can commit the crime. The interview in this case was the tailgating.

The aggressor tailgated his target, and then when the target responded to the aggressors initial act, the aggressor then knew he could go to the next level of intimidation, which was a huge escalation of projection by apparently drawing a weapon, which the other person responded to by drawing his and the situation can only go one direction then.

By not responding to the aggressors step one interviewing act of tailgating, the situation never occurs. Tailgaters that are this aggressive often are trying to provoke a reaction to create a situation where they can project domination over another person or situation. They often have issues, drugs, anger, meds that cloud rational thinking, and when you encounter this type of person, you have to step back and tell yourself that this person just may be all f***ed up in the head, and is not going to be thinking rationally, or logically, and they may have only one goal, and that is a violent anger release, and you have let them have this opportunity.

Situational dynamics are every thing. I don't care if I had to bend metal on my car or somebody else's car , I am not pulling over for one of these a**ho*es. I am just one chickenshot old man who can't kick anybody's a**, and will run from these situations real fast. Just don't be in my way.

 

[solv3nt]

I get the point. If he felt that level of threat, the return shooting MAY have been justified.

Did he escalate the situation by pulling over, or was he trying to defuse the situation by taking himself out of the equation?

 

[CoastRange57]

Did he escalate the situation by pulling over, or was he trying to defuse the situation by taking himself out of the equation?

By pulling over, he responded to the aggressors interview moves and tactics. Now the aggressor knows he can proceed to step 2 of his interview process by confronting the target, and seeing if he can complete his intended actions. The target becomes completely defensive in this situation and that is a bad thing.

How does him pulling over take him out of the situation or defuse the situation ? You do not defuse the situation by responding to the aggressors actions with the action the aggressor wants you to take. You still have situational control until the minute you respond and pull over.

As long as you are still mobile and under way and refusing to respond to the aggressors actions, you are still offensive and in a protective mode. If the aggressor continues to pursue you, you still have the option to take your fleeing actions up a few notches to try and get away.

The aggressor in this case had every intention apparently of assaulting this person for whatever reason he had. Allowing the situation to get to a point where he could execute that intention was the fatal mistake on the targets part.

 

[solv3nt]

You are correct that by pulling over, the target is responding to the aggressor. However, the act of removing yourself from a volatile situation can be viewed in two different ways by the aggressor. This move can be viewed, as you have pointed out, a response for a fight. Conversely, this move can also be viewed as ceding victory to the aggressor.

Your position my friend is the same as mine, I would never place myself in a situation that I have to defend myself. However, playing devil's advocate, what I am pointing out, is that not everyone in a similar situation see the simple act of pulling over the same.

 

[solv3nt]

If you tailgate me, I simply pull over and let you by.

By pulling over, he responded to the aggressors interview moves and tactics. Now the aggressor knows he can proceed to step 2 of his interview process by confronting the target, and seeing if he can complete his intended actions. The target becomes completely defensive in this situation and that is a bad thing.

How does him pulling over take him out of the situation or defuse the situation ? You do not defuse the situation by responding to the aggressors actions with the action the aggressor wants you to take. You still have situational control until the minute you respond and pull over.

As long as you are still mobile and under way and refusing to respond to the aggressors actions, you are still offensive and in a protective mode. If the aggressor continues to pursue you, you still have the option to take your fleeing actions up a few notches to try and get away.

The aggressor in this case had every intention apparently of assaulting this person for whatever reason he had. Allowing the situation to get to a point where he could execute that intention was the fatal mistake on the targets part.

Now I'm confused, you say that you would pull over if someone tailgates you, but at the same time, you say that by pulling over, you are playing into the hands of the aggressor. :huh:

 

[ocarolan]

Good discussion - I think we all agree typical road rage incidents can be avoided, and there's a lot to learn about conflict avoidance.

However, let's keep an open mind on this case, until more facts are known.