2 shoot and kill each other in road rage incident (both CHL holders)

[CoastRange57]

I needed to be clearer on that. By pulling over, I meant yielding the traffic lane to the tailgater and letting them proceed on their way. Thanks for pointing that out. If it was a two lane road easily done. If not then I would look for the first safe and appropriate place to move out of the lane of traffic, observing all traffic laws, and hopeful all the tailgater was was impatient and wanting to drive faster.

If the tailgater then started following me and displayed some level of aggression, I am going to rapidly leave the area. I may even disobey traffic laws to do so. If this person has displayed aggression, I am NOT having contact with them. I will locate LEO, drive right to a police or fire station, I will call on my cell phone, I will make right turns all day long to keep from having contact with that person.

Of my vehicles, I have a Mustang capable of some pretty high performance, a classic Ford pickup the same with some pretty good weight behind it, and an Explorer. The Explorer has strobes in the tail and front turn lights, and a wig wag circuit in the headlights.These are all related to my work and completely legal. That will attract some attention or make the aggressor think about who he may be dealing with.

 

[CoastRange57]

Good discussion - I think we all agree typical road rage incidents can be avoided, and there's a lot to learn about conflict avoidance.

However, let's keep an open mind on this case, until more facts are known.

I think just the situation bringing up this discussion was extremely unfortunate, but these discussions all help us become more aware as to what could happen,and the huge number of variables that play into them. Your words are very appropriate - conflict avoidance !!

 

[Grunwald]

Tailgating or aggressive driving is justification for shooting ?? Be a lot of dead people in this world if that is the case. If he had not pulled over, but analyzed the situation better,and made a choice NOT to enter a confrontation, he would still be alive today.

If someone is following you, pulling over and entering a confrontation is the LAST F*****G THING you should do. Getting away by any means possible should be your focus. But that is just me.

I cannot believe that you are blaming the victim.

There is only ONE bad guy here and that is the jerk who followed another man into a parking lot and then opened fire on him.
The only positive part of the story is that the victim managed to kill his murderer.

 

[Brutus57]

1 bad guy and another dead good guy. What does it matter as Hilary would say? I think avoidance should be the golden rule. SYG in your home, on your property with family at risk... Otherwise as Chef said. Never get out of the foo kin boat.

Brutus out

 

[Brutus57]

Remember the old "gun rack" window decal with the AR and other long guns. Those need to come back in style.

Brutus out

 

[CoastRange57]

I cannot believe that you are blaming the victim.

I am not blaming him. He made an unfortunate decision. No matter what the circumstances were surrounding him pulling into a parking lot, whether to confront the aggressor, or to try and get away from him, the minute he saw the other guy getting out of the car it is time to get the f**k out of there in a hurry. Floor it and go. Jump a curb if you have to, hit another car, worry about your alignment later. Get away from an advancing threat.

Neither you or I know the full circumstances and probably never will. I take these situations and turn them over and over and discuss them with trained individuals, LEO and military veterans, training officers and get their input to help me understand the possibilities and what I may do in that situation.

You have to take some pretty aggressive actions to prevent harm to yourself in these situations. I am NOT blaming him. He just made a decision that I would not have made. And you are correct, the aggressor got what he deserved, and the other man did not. Peace to him and his family.

 

[Riot]

I cannot believe that you are blaming the victim.

There is only ONE bad guy here and that is the jerk who followed another man into a parking lot and then opened fire on him.
The only positive part of the story is that the victim managed to kill his murderer.

First off, it sounds like both guys are guilty of letting stubborness and pride get ahead of themselves. Both guys (from the sounds of things) are guilty of "Road Rage" and overall, being immature children. Does that deserve three rounds to the chest? No, and nobody is saying that.

However, when you carry a firearm you have an obligation to be safe and coolheaded with it. You are accepting responsibility as a sheepdog. Mr. Pullman had an obligation to protect his loved ones and was responsible (as the driver) to keep his passengers out of harms way.

So, I think what Coast is saying is that sometimes being the bigger man means walking away and to "let it go".

Hopefully more details come out and we find out the entire story. In the meantime, stay safe out there guys...you never know what kind of crazy is in the car next to you.

 

[billdeserthills]

So what's not to like,
They each got their wish, nobody outside of their argument was injured
I think the whole thing went off without a hitch. Good Story

 

[SmawGunner]

if someone is going to shoot at you then get off the X ! it doesnt matter if your on the street, in your car, or at home. Just get the hell out of the line of fire. Dont be an idiot and just sit there and trade shots with the other guy. Both guys lose in that fight. Move then shoot back. Reset the other guys OODA loop and you will significantly increase your odds of winning the fight! This is exactly how old school square range training will get you killed.

 

[billdeserthills]

if someone is going to shoot at you then get off the X ! it doesnt matter if your on the street, in your car, or at home. Just get the hell out of the line of fire. Dont be an idiot and just sit there and trade shots with the other guy. Both guys lose in that fight. Move then shoot back. Reset the other guys OODA loop and you will significantly increase your odds of winning the fight! This is exactly how old school square range training will get you killed.

No shots were fired on the "X", seems to me that these guys woulda been better off to just ignore each other & keep driving. I still think the whole thing solved itself & with no innocents hurt-What more can anyone ask for?

 

[AMProducts]

I think before we go blaming the poor SOB who got to die with his family around him, for all we know the carwash was his destination. I know I've had people get all weird and aggressive on me just as I was arriving at my destination, I've never had to pull my gun though.

Strikes me that the instigator here probably had some other serious issues going on and this was the result, the difference here is that the person he chose to make a victim of was armed. Had he known the other driver was also armed would he still have opened up on him? There are way too many what-ifs here to really make much sense of it.

What I do know is if someone after some kind of road-rage confrontation came after me, they would probably be on the receiving end of my rear bumper followed by me GTFO'ing.

 

[Riot]

The minute either men looked to resolve this on their own without 911 ever being called.
They violated prime directive of CC, you avoid confrontation, you are not a cop.
Stepping out of a safe vehicle that can accelerate 10x faster then you can run is making bad choice.

I had and issue like this occur in Kalifornia, in 92 I was in the middle lane on a freeway a guy high on something
thought my car or I was someone he knew. He pulled along side me and pointed a gun at me and I took evasive maneuvers and he still followed me even off the freeway, I drove to the police station with my bulky cell phone back in 1992 gees .25 a minute back then. ( I was on 911 ) I had a CC and was carrying my 38 and could have escalated that at anytime. I was heading home and was not going to drive there ( for obviousl reasons) so made the right choice called 911 and drove to the station. He was arrested later under the influence on PCP he later said he did not remember me or doing what he did just being enraged.

A CC holder is not trained to determine the mind set of a threat. They have one job "defense" plain and simple.
Unless there is no choice and you will die other wise you should not ever be the aggressor it wont ever end well.

Yes, my ego was bruised letting some young punk run me off, but I was alive to come home to my wife and kids.
My ego repaired far easier then a bullet would have.

Your story reminds me of an incident that happened to a friend of mine. He was driving a car that matched the description of a bank robbery get-away car to almost to the 'T' (the only thing off was the plates by a couple letters, and [of course] it was not him). Some cop wanna-be overheard a police scanner of the BOLO and proceeded to try to apprehend my friend while driving. My friend was 17 at the time, and had a gun pulled on him and ran off the road because someone tried to be a hero. The wanna-be actually made things worse, having to have officers respond to him (and people that called the police on him) just to find out that he was being uber-tard with a pistol.

These are examples are obviously the extremes...some of you reading this are probably thinking to yourself "I would have shot that guy!" but is that really the right answer here?

Nobody is telling you that you have to be a coward. In fact, the definition a coward is the man that pulls out a gun/knife/bat to solve all their problems, rather than attempting to find a solution. Deadly force is only the answer when there are no other answers. When you are driving in a working car and you have road in front of you, you have an answer to your problem...it's that skinny peddle on the right.

 

[meener777]

Someone really needs to highlight that a study showed that cops had just as many firearm crimes as citizens with valid concealed carry licenses. iIRC .003 per cent.
Brutus out

Do you have a link to that? I'd like to add it my collection of data on this topic.

 

[guyfromChina]

Justt o play the Devil's advocate, Say I'm aggressively tailgating you and basically escalating into attempting to assault you with a 4,000 pound weapon. What are your options?

Please be specific what exactly would be your next step?

 

[solv3nt]

Justt o play the Devil's advocate, Say I'm aggressively tailgating you and basically escalating into attempting to assault you with a 4,000 pound weapon. What are your options?

Please be specific what exactly would be your next step?

1) I'm carrying a .45 on my hip, get out of the situation.
2) Call the cops, get out of the situation.
3) Get out of the situation.

 

[guyfromChina]

I've been tailing you for 5 minutes and the police are likely 10 minutes away, how exactly will you "get out of the situation"?
Drive 120mph down the road? I'll drive 140.
Go home? I'll know where you live?
Stop your car and sit there? Sitting duck!
What are you going to do? Sprout wings and fly away?

I don't think it is so simple and insisting that you'd "get out of the situation" shows you don't really have any idea how to deal with it either.

 

[solv3nt]

I've been tailing you for 5 minutes and the police are likely 10 minutes away, how exactly will you "get out of the situation"?
Drive 120mph down the road? I'll drive 140.
Go home? I'll know where you live?
Stop your car and sit there? Sitting duck!
What are you going to do? Sprout wings and fly away?

I don't think it is so simple and insisting that you'd "get out of the situation" shows you don't really have any idea how to deal with it either.

If you're tailing me, you're still not an active threat. You bump my car, you are now endangering my life. I personally don't want to shoot anyone, but I will protect myself and family. I'm not going to stop and make myself a target for a possible assault, you keep driving, and you get on the phone with the police.

 

[guyfromChina]

Not just tailing. Have you ever had someone use their vehicle to physically attack your vehicle? They drive in such a way that you must take evasive action to avoid contact. They attempt to box you in. And once they do bump your car what should you do? I think this is a very difficult situation to deal with, Again I wasn't there so I'm not saying that both guys weren't at fault but I don't think if you are really in that situation there is necessarily a clearly right way to respond.

 

[Riot]

Not just tailing. Have you ever had someone use their vehicle to physically attack your vehicle? They drive in such a way that you must take evasive action to avoid contact. They attempt to box you in. And once they do bump your car what should you do? I think this is a very difficult situation to deal with, Again I wasn't there so I'm not saying that both guys weren't at fault but I don't think if you are really in that situation there is necessarily a clearly right way to respond.

Slow down, but keep going...a bump at 20mph is nothing compared to a bump at 70mph. Put on your hazards, call the police and get your pistol ready.

Just to be clear, it's almost never justifiable to shoot at someone for running into your car with their car...if it was, there would probably be a dead person everyday in the parking lot of every WalMart. If you were stopped (with no way out and not just being rear-ended at a stop light) and they were ramming you I could probably see it justified in shooting someone...but you blasting away from a moving vehicle, shooting at another moving vehicle and you're the bigger bad-guy than he is.

This isn't Hollywood. Cars can take a lot of bullets before they become disabled. Have you ever even fired at a moving target before? How about firing from a moving target? How could you drive and effectively aim? Are you just going to stick your gun out the window (all thug style) and shoot at someone behind you while you drive? You're more likely to hit an innocent bystander than your intended target!

Find an open road, stay on the phone with the police and just keep going. Run red lights and stop-signs; drive up the wrong way if you have to, but just keep going! I'd easily take a ticket than get shot up by some madman that was angry because I accidentally cut him off a mile back. Heck, you'd probably get the attention of the police and other good-samaritans if you just drove like Grandma with your hazards on down I-5 while some madman tried to run you off the road...but you'll definitely end up in an adjacent cell if you even point a gun at a guy being a jerk in another car.

 

[Misterbill]

This must be the "blood in the streets" we all heard about when the antis opposed CCW. that it doesn't remotely dent the 12,000 murders a year will not, I think, ever enter into their rhetoric. How did I guess that? I must be a GENIUS.