Woman shot at DC Rally...

[A2theK]

Sorry -- I didn't mean you were the troll -- I meant the person you responded to. In the light of day, I see how my post was unclear.

Another member told me that in a PM last night. No offense taken. I was just confused that's all.

 

[awshoot]

Another member told me that in a PM last night. No offense taken. I was just confused that's all.

Perfectly understandable that you'd think I said it to you -- my post was really sloppy.

 

[made in china]

Lets bring the discussion back around to Ashi Babbitt.

No need to "call out" forum members for their postings....we are aware.

Its best not to comment on certain posts , especially when , you could guess that it won't change a thing and only add to the mess here.

Andy

I guess for now, we've already discussed as much as possible with what little info we have. We'll need to see the outcome of Ashli's situation, and consider how that affects us and the disparity of power (by which I mean why is it OK to shoot an unarmed protester, but OK to let people's lives and businesses be destroyed, and certain cities surrender completely for months on end to radicals? it shouldn't be that way, career criminals, err, I mean career politicians are no more important than anybody else. Unless, written into law)

One related thing I would like to bring up.....with every police involved shooting of a person of color, their name(s) are released and they must live in fear of retaliation. Will this DC officer who shot Ashli be publicly outed and get to enjoy living in fear as every other officer who, likely legally and justifiably, was just doing their job? hmmmm...

 

[ma96782]

I don't know why......
But my thoughts on the Capitol Shooting has wandered to.......

"Storm Area 51"

Rrrrright.....
Area 51 is also a "RESTRICTED AREA". Yup.....and signs are posted, including signs that warn that Deadly Force is Authorized.

So?

Are there signs at the Capitol? Then IF......hundreds of the Storm Area 51 people were met with gunfire for TRESPASSING on/in the RESTRICTED AREA. Would Public opinion and Congress be so silent?

Oh wait.....there was ONLY ONE PERSON shot at the Capitol.

Aloha, Mark

PS.......

 

[awshoot]

... We'll need to see the outcome of Ashli's situation, and consider how that affects us and the disparity of power (by which I mean why is it OK to shoot an unarmed protester, but OK to let people's lives and businesses be destroyed, and certain cities surrender completely for months on end to radicals? ...

We are in a pure application of power scenario and I would not expect to see equal treatment or fairness going forward. One thing is certain in my mind, as the reaction from Wednesday's mostly peaceful protest demonstrates, violent action will only make matters worse. I don't know what the strategy must be, but the one that worked for BLM/Antifa worked only because it had 100% support by Democrats, Oligarchs, MSM, educational institutions, Hollywood, and local/state governments. BLM/Antifa can literally murder people on the streets, and retain support of the oligarchy -- if a Trump supporter so much as spits on the sidewalk, the full weight of the government and social media will descend to wreak utter destruction.

We have none of that power and so our response must be different in some way. We live in a Google/Facebook/Twitter/Amazon oligarchy at this point -- a new age of monopolistic robber barons and we deeply need a Teddy Roosevelt figure to arise. Until then though, it's time boycott the oligarchs and support alternatives. This is not enough to win, but until a viable strategy emerges, it's at least something.

 

[bbbass]

we deeply need a Teddy Roosevelt figure to arise.

I thought we had one, but they beat him down...

 

[made in china]

We have none of that power and so our response must be different in some way.

Their response WAS different, they went right to the source to protest.

 

[bbbass]

would that include starting this thread, using a derogatory term like Trumpers, and giving a link to the New York Times?

It's taken me awhile to catch up. So I'm sorry for the late post....

To me, "Trumpers" is not by itself a derogatory term. I self-identify as a "Trumper". But when somebody calls me out as in "Hey you Trumpers", it is usually followed by a negative comment. And it's the intent that is derogatory IMO, not so much the term. Call me "white boy".... while it is true, it's the way it is said that is derogatory.

So when I posted:
"Tin soldiers and Trumpers coming",
I intended it to bring attention to or make a comparison to the Ohio State National Guard shooting of 4 student protestors that the CSN song "4 Dead in Ohio" is about. In that case, as in this one, there are two diff viewpoints on what happened. Only recently has more info come out, and some of what happened is still a bit murky, one sided, or viewed differently.

I'll stand firm on my decision to wait and see what other info comes out.

 

[awshoot]

I thought we had one, but they beat him down...

Trump got played every step of the way, and especially during the time when the GOP had both houses. The people who wormed their way into the cabinet, the congress figures who promised to do things later -- they all managed Trump. On both sides. He fired people who had his best interests at heart early on (Bannon for example) and took on snakes (Bolton for example).

If another chance arises, the Trump years should be studied carefully in order to avoid the same mistakes.

 

[Catfishmoon]

When I started watching the live video coverage of the chaos inside the capitol, my immediate reaction was "why is a riotous mob in the Capitol not being met by law enforcement with any/all force necessary to repel?" In my opinion, security should have put their own lives much more at risk rebuffing the onslaught.
If a mob of Antifa /BLM breached security at the White House, I would want/expect every means used to stop it... I see no difference between that and what happened at the Capitol.

 

[made in china]

If a mob of Antifa /BLM breached security at the White House, I would want/expect every means used to stop it... I see no difference between that and what happened at the Capitol.

Every means to stop destruction and death should also have been used at non-Capitol locations.
Antifa/BLM didn't bother to mess with the Capitol, they went to softer targets to create even more mayhem, which was largely allowed to occur for extremely long periods of time.

While I may agree that Capitol security may have acted faster against BLM/Antifa, Capitol security allowed Trumpers FAR LESS opportunity to create mayhem than has been allowed for BLM/Antifa.

Also, if you agree, even in the tiniest amount, that BLM and Antifa activities are at all coordinated by elites, than it should be pretty clear why those groups never tried what the Trumpers tried.

BTW "Trumpers" not meant as a derogatory term in this context.

 

[bbbass]

PS: I posted on

also, maybe i mislabeled the title of the thread. but i did intend to have a discussion about the protest, the shooting, and also the wider context that is the state of our nation.

i figured i could have a better convo and perhaps connect with other local 2a people so i went here instead of facebook/Instagram.

But, looking at the looming ban warning i fear this place is too sensitive for frank conversation.

ALSO, "report rule violations" sounds like a governor inslee thing.

Having a history of being personally involved in rule violations that brought about thread closures, I can say that if we don't want to see that happen, we have to play by the rules or we will be "managed". Nobody likes that.

I don't have to like the rules, but I have consented to live by them.

IMO, FWIW, only a discussion specifically of the Bobbitt shooting is within the rules. A general discussion of the protest, and the wider context or state of the nation is being allowed, but is not really within the rules. So my recommendation is take what you can get while you still have forbearance and not push it too far. You have been here long enough to know the score.

 

[ma96782]

So when I posted:
"Tin soldiers and Trumpers coming",
I intended it to bring attention to a comparison to the Ohio State National Guard shooting of 4 student protestors. In that case, as in this one, there are two diff viewpoints on what happened. Only recently has more info come out, and some of what happened is still a bit murky, one sided, or viewed differently.

I thought that your, "Tin Soldiers and Trumpers Coming"......was creative and entertaining.

Aloha, Mark

 

[bbbass]

I thought that your, "Tin Soldiers and Trumpers Coming"......was creative and entertaining.

Aloha, Mark

Uh thank you. Thank you very much.

I'll be here all week.

 

[made in china]

A faster police response, anticipatory police response would have prevented the death of Ashli.
It would have also kept the vast majority of protesters from finding themselves in a situation where they can be prosecuted Federally.
Makes you wonder if that's exactly why they were allowed just enough penetration, instead of being stopped at the perimeter where nothing bad could have happened.

 

[bbbass]

If a Fed is allowed to shoot someone on the other side of a locked door WITH SWAT ABOUT TO GRAB THEM, would I be allowed to shoot an intruder who is banging on my window? When the police are about to apprehend them?

Clearly not. "Banging"on the window, no. Breaking in... probably, but it would be many ways foolish to shoot with police in the line of fire.

The diff is this:

reportedly trying to enter the Speaker's Lobby, which would have provided access to the House of Representatives chamber.

1. Had the Reps all been evacuated at that point?
2. Would it have been safe to let unknown subjects into the Speaker's Lobby and the Chamber? (I assume those are restricted areas)
3. What was the morning brief on how to handle a breach? Was it even considered or brought up?
4. What was the area/line that must be defended at any cost?
5. What would have happened if this was the White House lawn or worse, the building itself?

IMO none of us know the answers to any of these questions. Until we do, we run the risk of unfairly judging what took place based only on videos and reporting. I often judge a video, but will also typically commit to wanting more info.

 

[bbbass]

A faster police response, anticipatory police response would have prevented the death of Ashli.
It would have also kept the vast majority of protesters from finding themselves in a situation where they can be prosecuted Federally.
Makes you wonder if that's exactly why they were allowed just enough penetration, instead of being stopped at the perimeter where nothing bad could have happened.

Well, hindsight and all.

Perhaps they weren't afraid of Trump backers until it was too late. But I've read opinions that said this was foreseeable due to the commitment of counter protestors to show up. And when they do, there is always trouble.

Enquiring minds go "Hmmmmmm".

 

[bbbass]

If a mob of Antifa /BLM breached security at the White House, I would want/expect every means used to stop it... I see no difference between that and what happened at the Capitol.

I agree with the first. Not sure yet that we know enough about the second statement.

1. Were protestors actually let in to parts of the building?
2. Were Congress and staff safely evacuated by the time of the shooting?
3. Why was Pelosi's office undefended, but the Speaker's Lobby a nogo line?

Fog of war, chaos. I don't think anybody had proper brief, preparation, clear ROE/orders, etc. There is room to wait to see if this was a justified shoot legally. Ethically or morally... IDK yet.

John Correia's rules of engagement:

1. Can I shoot?
2. Should I shoot?
3. Must I shoot?

Unless we were in that officer's shoes and knowing what he knew the situation to be, we can't answer those. I'd like to hear the official report of the officer's after-action statement.

 

[Catfishmoon]

I agree with the first. Not sure yet that we know enough about the second statement.

I should have worded my comment by not mentioning any specific group.

The point I was trying to convey is if a security perimeter is breached by any riotous mob, in a building containing the Vice President of America and hundreds of others, I would expect security to put their lives on the line rebuffing the intruders.

The same as I would expect if the building being breached had been the White House.

In neither case is the attackers' ideaology / political beliefs relevant...

 

[Swiss_Cheeze]

When I started watching the live video coverage of the chaos inside the capitol, my immediate reaction was "why is a riotous mob in the Capitol not being met by law enforcement with any/all force necessary to repel?" In my opinion, security should have put their own lives much more at risk rebuffing the onslaught.
If a mob of Antifa /BLM breached security at the White House, I would want/expect every means used to stop it... I see no difference between that and what happened at the Capitol.

I bet Iran got rid of some of their generals for not anticipating this cluster and attacking then.

Where was the guard they were calling up?

Unless we were in that officer's shoes and knowing what he knew the situation to be, we can't answer those. I'd like to hear the official report of the officer's after-action statement.

Maybe if we alive someday. And even then...