Will Americans Give Up Their Rights Also?

[Kentucky Windage]

I posted this picture earlier, I guess you missed it :



This is what got open carry banned in California some 30+ years ago. Recent open carry legislation was purely symbolic
since it only affected unloaded carry of handguns, which was impractical for defensive purposes.

Now is California the only state that bans open carry ? No, it's not. It's not even something that only "socialists" like
to do.


Does this mean nothing can't be done, and nothing will be done in CA to improve ? Absolutely not. States nationwide are still shaping their policies towards permissive carry. And if not through legislature, then through the court system.



Yes, Barrett won't sell whole 3 (three) M82's to CA government. Not sure why it has become an ultimate test of freedom for you, but
you are still not getting the point. If you don't know what's broken, you can't fix it.



Now I assume that was sarcasm, but why ? Nobody said CA doesn't restrict firearms. Your misrepresentation of the facts and important details was what spawned this conversation. Once again - if you don't know what's broken, you can't fix it.

Kentucky, let me point out the information in your original post that is wrong, and perhaps you'll see how information like this creates "hype," not "support."

The red text is factually incorrect:



Every "fact" in your post related to California's gun laws was false. The persuasiveness of your point, (that California's restrictive gun laws are bad,) is reliant on those facts being correct. No one here disagrees with your premise, but your method of expressing it is not helpfully addressing it.

Open Carry of long guns is not banned in CA - it only applies to hand guns. Which is, again, absurd. If you would like the CA Penial Code pertaining to that, I will be happy to provide it for you. Bringing other States into a discussion about CA is just about as relevant as bringing Somalia into a discussion about CA.


I posted, the CA PC, for you. For some reason, you refuse to accept it and want to twist things around to win what you call an, "Argument."
It is easy to understand - it is written in English after all. I have even refered you to subsections to cut out the leg work for you.


If you had ever spent your money on Barrett rifles, you would understand they are not exactly cheap. Barrett refusing to do business with all LEO agencies in CA is significant. A single entity, LAPD SWAT for example does not just purchase one or two rifles. In addition to rifles, the agencies require support. Parts, armorer training etc. Barrett effectively held CA LEO agencies to their own law, which they were not happy about.

 

[joken]

Those of you that are convinced that the 2A will never be repealed are making one incorrect assumption. You assume that our form of govt and constitution will remain intact. The 2A an all of our other rights could be gone the moment our government collapses. You can use your own imagination as to how that might happen or you could read some world history, starting say in 1935. Call me a right wing wacko if you like. I didn't write the history books.

 

[Bob D]

Open Carry of long guns is not banned in CA - it only applies to hand guns. Which is, again, absurd. If you would like the CA Penial Code pertaining to that, I will be happy to provide it for you. Bringing other States into a discussion about CA is just about as relevant as bringing Somalia into a discussion about CA.

Again, I am not disputing the facts you use that are correct. It is merely the incorrect ones that I object to.
Repeating the parts you got right doesn't make you right about the other ones, just as pointing out that some of your facts are wrong doesn't mean I disagree with the ones that are.

We're all on the same side of this issue. California's gun laws are absurd. They are still laws, and they are specifically defined.

 

[Kentucky Windage]

Again, I am not disputing the facts you use that are correct. It is merely the incorrect ones that I object to.
Repeating the parts you got right doesn't make you right about the other ones, just as pointing out that some of your facts are wrong doesn't mean I disagree with the ones that are.

We're all on the same side of this issue. California's gun laws are absurd. They are still laws, and they are specifically defined.

Everything I have said is out lined within the CA PC's - yet, you challange it. Feel free to call up Mr. Brown and tell him the laws pertaining to firearms in CA are not really laws. They are just hype.

By your logic Open Carry is not banned in CA since you can Open Carry long guns.

If someone asks if they can legally Open Carry a sidearm in CA, the correct answer is not, you can Open Carry long guns therefore Open Carry is legal.

The correct answer is, No Open Carry of a sidearm is not legal CA.

 

[Bob D]

As I said before, these statements in your post way way back are not true, and are being used by yourself to build "hype."

"You cannot own a .50 caliber rifle in CA. It is a felony to posses one as a CA citizen."

"A CA citizen cannot posses a handgun magazine that is capable of holding over 10 rounds. It is a felony."

"A CA citizen cannot posses an AR that does not have pinned magazines. It is a felony."

Additionally, open carry of a sidearm is only illegal in incorporated areas. Hype.

There's plenty to complain about in the actual laws, but it's important to get the facts right.

 

[Kentucky Windage]

As I said before, these statements in your post way way back are not true, and are being used by yourself to build "hype."





Additionally, open carry of a sidearm is only illegal in incorporated areas. Hype.

There's plenty to complain about in the actual laws, but it's important to get the facts right.

Now your defense is Open Carry not illegal because you can do it out in the middle of nowhere in the CA deserts? That is grasping for strings.

That is like saying, sure, you can own any car you want. As long as you only drive it on Monday, between 0100 and 0200, travel no more than 1 mile and no faster than 10 MPH, only put half a gallon of gas in it, and notify your local Government of your intended path 7 working days prior to starting said vehicle. However, if you flat bed your vehicle to middle of the desert you may sit in it, pretend to drive, and rev the engine as much as you like. As long as there is never more than 1 gallon of gas in it at any point in time - as long as you provide the State with your insurance, CADL number, SSN, your childrens SSN, your neighbors SSN, and provide a key for said vehicle to the State. Additionally, you will be required to write a letter of apology for if/when you offend pundits for enjoying a personal interest.

When people ask about Open Carry laws, they are not asking about Open Carry laws in the middle of a desolate desert.

Open Carry in CA is legal in your home for example. Does that mean Open Carry is legal in CA? Nope. Again, when people ask, "Can I Open Carry in CA?" They are not asking if they can Open Carry in their living room. Even in your living room, if your nitwit of a neighbor decides they do not like you, they can call the Police and you will probably find yourself charged with brandishing because someone who thinks they are importatn will claim that they were afraid or that you meant to brandish your weapon and instill fear in them. All just hype....


You, as a citizen, cannot own a .50 cal rifle. When people go into a gun shop and ask about a .50 cal, they are not asking about some rifle that was made to appease pudits (which will eventually find itself banned in CA if people do not get their head screwed on straight). They are asking about a .50 BMG. To argue otherwise is just silly. They are not asking about a muzzle loader. They are not asking about a 510 DTC EUROP (which has a .760" diameter and is .100" shorter than the .50 BMG anyways therefore it is not a .50 cal which is a .715" diameter). They are asking about a .50 BMG and are probably interested in something from Barrett, McMillan, or ArmaLite.

This is what CA thinks of its citizens:

12275.5. (a) The Legislature hereby finds and declares that the proliferation and use of assault weapons poses a threat to the health, safety, and security of all citizens of this state

(b) The Legislature hereby finds and declares that the proliferation and use of .50 BMG rifles, as defined in Section 12278, poses a clear and present terrorist threat to the health, safety, and security of all residents of, and visitors to, this state, based upon findings that those firearms have such a high capacity for long distance and highly destructive firepower that they pose an unacceptable risk to the death and serious injury of human beings, destruction or serious damage of vital public and private buildings, civilian, police and military vehicles, power generation and transmission facilities, petrochemical production and storage facilities, and transportation infrastructure...

CHAPTER 2.3. ROBERTI-ROOS ASSAULT WEAPONS CONTROL ACT OF 1989

 

[fd15k]

Those of you that are convinced that the 2A will never be repealed are making one incorrect assumption. You assume that our form of govt and constitution will remain intact. The 2A an all of our other rights could be gone the moment our government collapses. You can use your own imagination as to how that might happen or you could read some world history, starting say in 1935. Call me a right wing wacko if you like. I didn't write the history books.

2A is a restraint against the government(s). If there is no government, there is no need for 2A.

 

[Bob D]

Now your defense is Open Carry not illegal because you can do it out in the middle of nowhere in the CA deserts? You are grasping for strings.

What am I defending? All I'm doing is telling you what the laws ARE. We're in agreement that those laws are wrong, but you're misrepresenting the truth and it's completely unnecessary.

You say "open carry of a sidearm is not legal in California" and that is false information. The truth is that open carry of a sidearm is not legal in any incorporated area of California.

When people ask about Open Carry laws, I tell them the truth.

 

[Kentucky Windage]

What am I defending? All I'm doing is telling you what the laws ARE. We're in agreement that those laws are wrong, but you're misrepresenting the truth and it's completely unnecessary.

You say "open carry of a sidearm is not legal in California" and that is false information. The truth is that open carry of a sidearm is not legal in any incorporated area of California.

When people ask about Open Carry laws, I tell them the truth.

I have posted CA law with reference to sub sections several times now. How can you possibly accuse me of misrepresenting anything?

No one cares if it is legal or illegal to carry in the middle of the desert where no one is around anyways. People do care if it is or is not legal in places that they actually go. If Mr. Brown thought he could enforce Open Carry being illegal in incorporated areas, he would.

 

[Bob D]

I have posted CA law with reference to sub sections several times now. How can you possibly accuse me of misrepresenting anything?

... ...because the statements you made were untrue.

No one cares if it is legal or illegal to carry in the middle of the desert where no one is around anyways. People do care if it is or is not legal in places that they actually go. If Mr. Brown thought he could enforce Open Carry being illegal in incorporated areas, he would.

That's completely possible, but it does not make the statement "Open Carry of a sidearm is not legal CA" true.

"What people mean" doesn't really matter when you're talking about a legal issue. .50 caliber handguns are legal in California, such as the desert eagle. .50 DTC rifles are legal in California. Therefore, one cannot say "You, as a citizen, cannot own a .50 cal rifle" because it is not true. It's not even strictly true of .50 BMG rifles, provided you've done the correct paperwork and been approved.

What is true is that California has extreme regulation of the sale and ownership of .50 BMG rifles.

 

[Swedish K]

KY - don't get me wrong here or take it the wrong way here but the .50 ban in CA uses the specific cartridge dimensions of .50 BMG ammunition in the legal description. Essentially, if you were to turn the rear rim down a bit on BMG brass and replace the bolt on a Barrett with one that would not close on standard "government issue" .50BMG ammo it would technically be legal in CA. Would you run the risk of having to go to court when officer bob wrongly accuses you of having an illegal weapon? yes, however, you would win in court and have your weapon returned. Are the CA gun laws excessively restrictive? yes. Did I profit from the stupid CA gun laws? yes, and because my business partner and I found a loophole in the law we were selling AK pistols with a 75 round drum tack welded into the mag well CA added the make of receiver we were using to the ban by name list. They also changed the laws to include fixed magazines over 10 rounds because we and others took advantage of that "loophole".
All that said, I am certainly happy not to live under the less than stellar gun laws of that state. Unfortunately for the pro 2a people residing in CA I don't see them recovering their firearms rights as fast or faster than they are loosing them any time in the near future.
On the flip side, in CA possession of full auto parts by themselves that are not federally restricted is legal in CA, while possession of machine gun parts in WA is a felony. Still I'm much happier to live with WA laws than CA laws.
Oh - you mentioned excessive car restrictions - CA's Air Resources Board did push for a ban on the sale of new cars of "dark" colors as they in theory lead to running the A/C more often which draws HP from the engine and produces more pollution - so obviously the nut cases are still at it trying to push for stupid laws down there.
Unfortunately (or fortunately in some cases) most LE has no idea what is or isn't legal when it comes to firearms in CA so people are at risk of being arrested for possession of perfectly legal firearms that look similar to something that is not legal there,however, the same uneducated cop might overlook something that is technically illegal because they don't know what they are doing.

OK enough rambling on from the soap box...

 

[davemata]

It does not sound like you have spent too much time in CA - Disneyland does not count.

This entire post is so filled with BS... but I'll hit on a couple things.
.50 Caliber BMG Regulation Act of 2004 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But oh look the .510 DTC Europ is the same thing...
.510 DTC EUROP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and then of course, a more layman's description of what is banned.
Gunwiki: About 50cal Bans in California

Only shoulder fired weapons chambered in .50 BMG are banned. So shoulder fired weapons in .50 BEOWULF are FINE. Which would be a .50 cal rifle. Eh?

And seriously... Cars are checked at the NV/CA border? What fantasy world are you in, they're AGRICULTURAL CHECKS. It's like the logic special olympics right here. Then again, wtf would I know, I only was born in LA and have lived half my life between there and SF. There is a lot to grouse about, so be factual and not purposefully dishonest.

The rest of your post was simply fantasy.

 

[VW_Factor]

Regulation = Infringed

+1

 

[Kentucky Windage]

... ...because the statements you made were untrue.

A 510 DTC is not a .50 cal rifle. It is a rifle that is designed off of a .50 cal case. If it were a .50 rifle, citizens would not be able to legally own them. Being that it is not in fact a .50 cal rifle is how CA citizens are legally able to own a 510 DTC, which is why Mr. Danis designed the 510 DTC EUROP in the first place.

A 510 DTC EUROP cannot chamber a .50 BMG cartridge. A .50 BMG cannot chamber a 510 DTC cartridge. If a 510 DRC EUROP could chamber a .50 BMG, it would be a .50 cal. It cannot and it is not. Which, once again, is why CA citizens can legally own the 510 DTC EUROP - it is not a .50 cal.

But oh look the .510 DTC Europ is the same thing...
.510 DTC EUROP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is disproved in this provided link:

The .510 DTC EUROP uses the same bullet as the .50 BMG, but has slightly different case dimensions. The case is 0.100 inches (2.5 mm) shorter and uses a steeper shoulder than standard .50 BMG ammunition. .510 DTC cases can be made by shortening and then fire-forming .50 BMG cases. The new round has almost identical ballistics, but because of the different dimensions, rifles chambered for the .50 BMG cannot safely fire the .510 DTC, and vice versa, and therefore do not fall under the same legal prohibitions. To avoid any confusion, American .510 DTC rifle manufacturers have taken to calling the cartridge the ".50 DTC," to avoid giving the impression that the weapons are over .50 caliber, which would require their registration as "Destructive Devices" under the 1934 National Firearms Act. .510 DTC rifles, like .50 BMG rifles outside of California, are simply standard modern rifles and can be purchased as such.

If you think a .50 BEOWULF is a replacement for your long range Barrett you are in a fantasy land. CA sees it as harmless. If it ever gains a huge following it will probably be banned.


I have had my car checked several times coming over the NV/CA border because an American flag was on my vehicle. CA law allows firearms/accessories/components that are not legal in CA to pass through.

 

[davemata]

A 510 DTC is not a .50 cal BMG.

I really sometimes wonder why people do things like this willingly. I think it's due to pride, so entrenched in a position it would hurt their pride to give it up, even in the face of overwhelming fact.

... and I fixed it for you.

 

[coop44]

Owning an automatic weapon with an authoritative approval isn't a removal/giving up of ones' right. That's an example of a regulation. Washington state regulates firearms by saying no to SBRs and automatics although exceptions exist - FFL-holders of a particular type, so they're regulated in that way.

California is a different topic. A better thread would be, "Why would anyone in their right mind live in California - ESPECIALLY if you're a gun owner?"

There are people who still want to live there and are fighting the laws and regulations every day. They deserve all our support. Those people are fighting the good fight. I only left because I had to for various reasons. Given the opportunity I would return, there is a huge segment of the population there that is doing everything possible to overturn and reverse unfair regulation. I am proud to have participated in their efforts. Go to calguns and the calguns foundation to check it out.


Don't be so quick to judge, we are not a separate country up here. All the liberals here watch everything going on in california, taking very careful notes. Organized gun owners in California are doing what they can for all of us.

 

[Kentucky Windage]

I really sometimes wonder why people do things like this willingly. I think it's due to pride, so entrenched in a position it would hurt their pride to give it up, even in the face of overwhelming fact.

... and I fixed it for you.

Interesting. When you want to split hairs it is fine. However, when hairs are split, just as CA law does, you do not take to it and choose to insult people because the law is clear as day and try to make it an issue of pride.

Classy.


I have posted CA law, again, several times. You are arguing with CA law not me.

 

[Grunwald]

A 510 DTC is not a .50 cal rifle. It is a rifle that is designed off of a .50 cal case. If it were a .50 rifle, citizens would not be able to legally own them. Being that it is not in fact a .50 cal rifle is how CA citizens are legally able to own a 510 DTC, which is why Mr. Danis designed the 510 DTC EUROP in the first place.

A 510 DTC EUROP cannot chamber a .50 BMG cartridge. A .50 BMG cannot chamber a 510 DTC cartridge. If a 510 DRC EUROP could chamber a .50 BMG, it would be a .50 cal. It cannot and it is not. Which, once again, is why CA citizens can legally own the 510 DTC EUROP - it is not a .50 cal.




It is disproved in this provided link:




If you think a .50 BEOWULF is a replacement for your long range Barrett you are in a fantasy land. CA sees it as harmless. If it ever gains a huge following it will probably be banned.


I have had my car checked several times coming over the NV/CA border because an American flag was on my vehicle. CA law allows firearms/accessories/components that are not legal in CA to pass through.

How did you have your car checked? Did they actually search it? I hope if they tried you've asked them to provide a search warrant, and upon them not being able to produce one, you told them to go and read the Bill of Rights.

 

[Kentucky Windage]

How did you have your car checked? Did they actually search it? I hope if they tried you've asked them to provide a search warrant, and upon them not being able to produce one, you told them to go and read the Bill of Rights.

I have been checked on a few occasions when traveling NV to CA and AZ to CA. Never when traveling CA to NV, CA to AZ, or CA to OR - entering, never leaving.

Asking for a warrant does not stop them in their tracks; it delays them until a supervisor arrives. They will tell you that they have Cause because they are concerned for the safety of their citizens etc. Meanwhile, a truck full of illegal aliens in the lane over lazily rolls on by. The insulting part is being picked out becaus you have an American flag/NRA/Military sticker on your vehicle.

It is one of those times where you have to think and pick your battles. Do I sit here and put up a fuss or do I comply and get the car started so that I can get the air conditioning back on for the kids and get moving?

 

[davemata]

How did you have your car checked? Did they actually search it? I hope if they tried you've asked them to provide a search warrant, and upon them not being able to produce one, you told them to go and read the Bill of Rights.

It's an Ag check, there is no "border" checking in CA. It makes for a good story though. Basically they way it works is this: If you have a CA plate, you're waved through. IF you have an NV plate, you're waved through. AFAIK all others are "Stopped" and asked: Do you have any fruits and vegetables. You say no, and you're off. Generally though, these guys provide a huge service, as they will give you maps if you need them, and answer questions about the local area if you need a place to rest, etc. Unless you act like an asshat, the CHP never gets into the situation.

Granted, this may have changed since the last time I crossed that border last winter.

KW- I've given you the laws, you choose to ignore them. .50cal is not banned, only rifles chambered for the .50 BMG cartridge there is a difference.