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^^^This^^^^
To take it even further, before the industrial revolution, there were the traditional tribal roles! some men were the hunters and war fighters, some were the farmers and miners, some tended to the supplies, some gathered crops and water and tended the livestock, and some were the teachers, amd we have a elder chief, and finally the wasterials who contributed nothing! Each of these ( except the last one) were essential and well respected with in the community at large, and the better they were, the better they lived! Fast forward to today and there are no longer a great need for many of these roles, the hunter/fighter speciffically, so society has cast him out because he is no longer needed, not that he has nothing to contribute or provide, but because he is simply no longer pertinent! We also have a shift to a power base where people want to be the chief with out cause, they want power but with out the experience of the other skills that would traditionally earn them the respect of the tribe! We see this more and more as money and power become larger and harder to take, at the same time, we have more and more Wasterials who are demanding more and more a share of unearned things!
The role of the hunter has been eliminated as a practical thing for most of humanity. There are so many people compared with game animals that only laws and regulation prevent their being wiped out entirely. One exception is ocean fishing. But hunting on land has for most been reduced to a recreation.

The warrior is still needed. And warriors are still celebrated in popular culture and elsewhere. A high proportion of presidents and other politicos have military experience, as does a high proportion of civilian LE. The role of the warrior in society is less than it once was because there are fewer of them by percent of population. Human fighting has largely been supplanted by machines such as bombers, missiles, etc. The same amount of destruction now requires far fewer human warriors.

Your discussion of societal specialization and production and its getting infested and taken over by people who are making no contribution reminds me of a Jordan Peterson youtube video I just heard. He was presenting one particular view of the liberal-conservative continuum and role. It was interesting because in this view both were essential. I don't know what I think of this yet, as it's too new to me. I don't know yet whether this is original with Peterson, either. I'll need to learn more. Here's the view.

He starts by saying that people are unequal, and that this leads to differential achievements, which leads to hierarchies. These are essentially hierarchies of merit and competence. Those who are contributing the most are on top, and because they are on top they can contribute even more. So these hierarchies are heavily responsible for human production and accomplishment.

Conservatives, says Peterson, are more accepting of the hierarchies than liberals, and more able to work within them. Liberals, on the other hand, are less accepting of hierarchies and less comfortable working within them. They are more likely to challenge hierarchies, rein them in, or even overthrow them and create new ones.

Part 3 is that once there is a hierarchy, lots tends to go wrong. Those at the top can rig the system so other competent people have no fair opportunities to advance. The hierarchy can become so greedy at the top and self serving that everyone elses' lives are miserable. Various bad actors can gain power illegitimately, and provide nothing in return. So control of the hierarchy can get taken over by incomprtents. And various freeloaders infest the hierarchy at all levels and provide nothing in exchange for their power and salaries.

The conservatives are, by and large, best at fitting in and running the hierarchy and defending it when it is actually mostly a legitimate meritocracy and not too authoritarian or infested with freeloaders. The liberals are needed to rein in the hierarchy and modify it when it has gone too far wrong. Or overthrow it and replace it entirely if need be.

According to this view, a stable society requires a balance of power between liberals and conservatives, with the conservatives running it and preserving it from unnecessary or counterproductive changes, and the liberals restraining it, changing it, making it more fair, or culling out the weeds and vermin.
 
The role of the hunter has been eliminated as a practical thing for most of humanity. There are so many people compared with game animals that only laws and regulation prevent their being wiped out entirely. One exception is ocean fishing. But hunting on land has for most been reduced to a recreation.

The warrior is still needed. And warriors are still celebrated in popular culture and elsewhere. A high proportion of presidents and other politicos have military experience, as does a high proportion of civilian LE. The role of the warrior in society is less than it once was because there are fewer of them by percent of population. Human fighting has largely been supplanted by machines such as bombers, missiles, etc. The same amount of destruction now requires far fewer human warriors.

Your discussion of societal specialization and production and its getting infested and taken over by people who are making no contribution reminds me of a Jordan Peterson youtube video I just heard. He was presenting one particular view of the liberal-conservative continuum and role. It was interesting because in this view both were essential. I don't know what I think of this yet, as it's too new to me. I don't know yet whether this is original with Peterson, either. I'll need to learn more. Here's the view.

He starts by saying that people are unequal, and that this leads to differential achievements, which leads to hierarchies. These are essentially hierarchies of merit and competence. Those who are contributing the most are on top, and because they are on top they can contribute even more. So these hierarchies are heavily responsible for human production and accomplishment.

Conservatives, says Peterson, are more accepting of the hierarchies than liberals, and more able to work within them. Liberals, on the other hand, are less accepting of hierarchies and less comfortable working within them. They are more likely to challenge hierarchies, rein them in, or even overthrow them and create new ones.

Part 3 is that once there is a hierarchy, lots tends to go wrong. Those at the top can rig the system so other competent people have no fair opportunities to advance. The hierarchy can become so greedy at the top and self serving that everyone elses' lives are miserable. Various bad actors can gain power illegitimately, and provide nothing in return. So control of the hierarchy can get taken over by incomprtents. And various freeloaders infest the hierarchy at all levels and provide nothing in exchange for their power and salaries.

The conservatives are, by and large, best at fitting in and running the hierarchy and defending it when it is actually mostly a legitimate meritocracy and not too authoritarian or infested with freeloaders. The liberals are needed to rein in the hierarchy and modify it when it has gone too far wrong. Or overthrow it and replace it entirely if need be.

According to this view, a stable society requires a balance of power between liberals and conservatives, with the conservatives running it and preserving it from unnecessary or counterproductive changes, and the liberals restraining it, changing it, making it more fair, or culling out the weeds and vermin.

From my experience, liberals fertilize weeds and feed/house vermin.
 
If.

They can pass all the necessary laws to take the guns away. Then get all the criminals to play nice and turn in there guns?
License and control any mold, lathe, CNC, 3-D printer or other device that could make a gun sometime in the future?

Basically put the smoke back in the cigar. And get rid of any way to light that cigar again.










Sounds Insane doesn't it? :D

Yeah, because no one has ever had their head smashed in with a rock.
 
As far as the notion of fear of aggression goes...
Sometimes aggression is a positive thing...combat comes to mind.
Not that every combat action requires a full on aggressive approach..but no firefight has ever been "won" by the timid....

Aggression if positively channeled into a appropriate outlet is good for everyone...no need to fear it , hide it or teach that it is "bad".
Keeping aggression in and unchecked , seems to cause more problems...at least to me and what I have experienced in life.

We still have much of the prehistoric man locked into our brains and instinct....to go against it seems to me , to be unnatural...
Please note that I am not saying that we need to be all brutal and dog eat dog towards our fellow man.
Nor just run amok with our aggression , it does need a appropriate outlet.
I am just thinking that we really aren't that far removed from a time where we as man lived a precarious existence....some folks in the world still live that way.

Sorry for the digression...
( Maybe it was a aggressive digression....:eek::D )
Andy

I was thinking:
That the teaching of "Aggression is bad" ...
The fear of being aggressive...
Keeping aggression in , without a appropriate outlet for it...
Is "bad" for us in general.
And that on occasion aggression can be a positive trait to have....
Andy

Agressivess is principle three per Jeff Cooper.
 
I think generally the term "masculine" has been conflated with the very different term "macho". The roots of masculine and feminine are genetic and biological. Masculinity derives from the need to protect the women and children. Even when that comes at a cost of personal comfort, safety or even life. Aggression isn't really part of that equation but rather counter-aggression. One doesn't protect ones family by going out of their way to find a bear to poke (aggression) but should the bear show up near the cave to eat the children, it's time to counter-attack.

Not too many bear encounters these days. It may be nothing worse than a flat tire. Being masculine means you "deal with it". Even when it's raining. Even if your hands get dirty and your knuckles bruised. There is the entire spectrum of reality. From the burned out light bulb to storming the beach at Iwo Jima. Masculinity is the ability and (even if reluctant) willingness to "deal with it". Not much masculinity inhabits the world of those who need someone else (especially government) to deal with everything. They don't understand and therefore literally fear those who don't have that need.

Those who want no guns for anyone, when they're not overtly evil, are merely being children. Like the belief that violence is never the solution. It's the childish belief that "no guns for anyone" is even possible and ignoring the ugly reality that sometimes ONLY violence is the solution.

I wish I could like this multiple times. Spot on 100%
 
PRINCIPLES OF PERSONAL DEFENSE
Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense are:
1. Alertness
2. Decisiveness
3. Aggressiveness
4. Speed
5. Coolness
6. Ruthlessness
7. Surprise

Thanks for posting that titsonritz...
Those 7 Principles make sense and seem useful.

I don't want to leave the impression that I dislike Jeff Cooper and what he did or wrote...
But I do dislike the way some* folks quote him and other gun writers ... Then make as if they have the same experience and skill set that the gun writer folks have....If that makes sense at all....
Just kinda turned me off from reading him and others....
( *not saying that you are one of these folks... )
Andy
 
Thanks for posting that titsonritz...
Those 7 Principles make sense and seem useful.

I don't want to leave the impression that I dislike Jeff Cooper and what he did or wrote...
But I do dislike the way some* folks quote him and other gun writers ... Then make as if they have the same experience and skill set that the gun writer folks have....If that makes sense at all....
Just kinda turned me off from reading him and others....
( *not saying that you are one of these folks... )
Andy

I didn't take it that way at all. Your posts on the positive attributes of aggression made me think of that chapter in Cooper's book "Principles of Personal Defense". I happen to have the book sitting here because I was planning to read it again. And believe me, I get where you are coming from on the whole Travis Haley, James Yeager, <insert whomever> worship crowd. :rolleyes:
 
I haven't read all the responses, so it's probably already been covered. But, in no particular order.

- Loss/forgetting of our heritage, traditions, and the sacrifices of those who came before us to ensure our freedom. This is a big one for me...its a major slap in the face to just cast aside what our forefathers fought and died for.

- Control, as has been previously stated.
- Irrationally blaming an inanimate mechanical device that is being misused rather than the criminal committing the act.
- Just flat-out hatred of firearms. Some people simply HATE guns, they way some people hate leaf blowers.
- Hypocrisy - they don't hate their (or their security details' guns), they hate YOU having YOUR guns.
- In combination with the above, the belief that when all is 'right in the world' in their eyes, everyone is subject to proper governmental regulation, that they will be AT top, in the upper echelon, and in control, the MORE EQUALs, and be able to do what they want from their gated communities.
- The gross misbelief that outlawing guns will make them go away. As long as they're around in any form or fashion, criminals will obtain and misuse them.
- The gross misbelief that removing all means of defending your home and loved ones will cause violet crime to end. They have no grasping of the idea that the reason far less home invasions, robberies, rapes, etc. happen is because right now criminals know that they run the risk of encountering armed resistance. The serious, predatory-types that exist out there. Take that away, and it probably won't go as they think it will. Remember, the criminals will have their guns. Making sure you don't isn't going to make you safer.
- Loss of self reliance...use to be, you wanted meat on the table, you had to go beyond the local grocery store and get it yourself.

My $.02 worth.
BOSS
 
I have talked with many pro-activist some famous, some way more knowledgeable then me, and yet when we have a deep serious discussion no one can answer this one simple question.

Why, Take Guns ?

Sure there are speculated thoughts.
  1. NWO
  2. Socialism
  3. complete gun bans
We all know they are wanting our guns and not just a few but all.
So Why, Take Guns ?

Its clear our honorable military wont take them from us, and there is simply no clear end game.
We have ideas, but stopping gun violence doesn't work because this was going on long before any televised shootings and seems to have come about around 1900 when cities looked at crime in the large cities and firearms, as well as increased travel abilities.

OK we know what causes all these acts, but very very smart people, can still only speculate and guess on what the end game is. And if there is a end game, the masses are following blindly, as well know they are not even reading FBI stats.

( #43 proposal is a great one to ask, as there is no problem at all here with semi-autos, so if their plan was to confiscate, ok fine, but why.... where is that piece they are heading for and we can speculate all we want but that wont answer.........Why, Take Guns ?
We know why China, and Hilter did, so why us?


So if you want to talk on this subject, this is not asking what causes them to do what they are doing, they have a list they make up at will. But what is that clear end game ?
Analogy, "We want all cities in the USA to have clean water, so we pass laws requiring all cities to have treatment plants so all have fresh water"
Clear as a bell there is a problem needs solving and a clear answer to why they want this.

Why, Take Guns ? It way to easy to simply say they want them due to gun violence as there is proof to the contrary, and if that is true why are liberal-antis, law makers all heading towards some unknown solution.


Your thoughts?
********************************************************************

Is seems to be a thing that absolute ruler types want. They are control freaks who are afraid that if the general population has firearms that there could be an insurection, just as our original leaders said there should be if that type of ruler came into office. There are also the sheeple who have no idea what to do in case of an emergency. The people who panic at the sound of a fire cracker.
What is on the other side of that coin would be the simple fact that if you really wanted to kill a lot of people you wouldn't use a gun anyway.
There are so many better ways to kill people than by using guns that it is difficult to count them all. Science is and has been for decades in the process of creating energy weapons. They may not be developed to the stage where they are small and portable, but a vehicle mounted energy weapon is today a possibility. There are also all kinds of explosives that could be brought to bear on a person or group of people. All of our military personnel have been concerned for some time about bombs in close proximity to our military instilations and ships. The USS Cole comes to mind, and you can make them in your garage or back room.
The major problem is not the guns. The major peoblem is the news media sensationalizing the crimes for months and sometimes years so that unbalanced people want to jump on that band wagon. If it bleeds it leads.
 
The Republic was designed to have all power in the hands of its Citizens and not professional politicians which our Founders despised. One of the reasons for the Second Amendment was to ensure that the Government feared the Citizens (to keep it honest) and not the other way around (which would have and is rendering the Citizens to become Subjects). There are several reasons why people will tell you they want to take guns away from law abiding people, but this, Citizen vs Subject, is at the root of all of them.
 
After the guns are gone, then they can tax us all into oblivion in the name of pet causes like global warming, social justice, or whatever the feel good progressive topic of the week is. Of course, when they tax us then it will be at gun point.
Off the subject but I believe the phrase is, "Don't Californicate Oregon."
 
The Founding Fathers included the 2nd Amendment because they knew that all governments eventually want more and more power and that those governments know that an armed populace is a threat to that goal of ultimate power over the people. That is what we are seeing. The Democrats are obvious about it, they are just trying to hide the reason (after all "it's about the safety of the people". Read Ben Franklin on that one!), and/or the believers just believe what they are told. The republicans "appear" to be against gun control but we now have a wannabe authoritarian as president, who is supported by billionaire oligarchs. The republicans are just taking advantage of the most divisive issue in the US for an advantage over the democrats. If the republicans were ever to believe they are close to achieving their goal of a Putin style government, we would see that support for the 2nd Amendment immediately evaporate. The democrats have already laid the groundwork. Be prepared!
 
Last Edited:
.... The republicans "appear" to be against gun control but we now have a fascist as president, who is supported by billionaire oligarchs.....

No, we got rid of that guy in the last election. The present occupant may be a lot of things but fascist isn't one of them. To quote Mussolini, the father of fascism; "All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state." If Trump was a fascist, he'd be adding to the Obama statist controls, not dismantling them. "Fascist" is over used and usually improperly applied. It doesn't mean "someone I dislike". Most of the people I see today screaming "fascist" are themselves very much fascists or their close in-bred cousins, communists.

Otherwise, a fair amount of what you say is correct.
 

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