Why one cop carries 145 rounds

[K-22]

this happened several years ago - don't know if was posted here back then
6 of the hits were in the Kill Zone with a .45 and he still kept shooting back

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty

www.police1.com

I would be curious to know what type of ammo the officer was using.
Best,
Gary

 

[Knebel]

Miami Police Shooting Frenzy Revealed: 377 Shots Fired By 23 Cops At 2 Men In Car...

The shooting occurred back in December.



"On December 10, more than two dozen police officers from across Miami Dade County converged on a blue Volvo that had crashed in the backyard of a townhouse on 65th Street just off 27th Avenue.

As the car was wedged helplessly between a light pole and a tree, nearly a minute passed before officers opened up – firing approximately 50 bullets at the car and the two unarmed men inside the vehicle.

The two men inside the car survived that initial volley of gunfire, according to witnesses, who said they could see the men moving inside the Volvo. Everything went quiet for nearly two minutes before the officers opened up a second time – unleashing an unrelenting torrent of bullets that lasted almost 25 seconds. By the time it was over, the two men inside the car were dead.

CBS4 News has learned a total of 23 officers fired a total of at least 377 rounds."

On Average that would be a mag each (assuming Glock 17rders)

"Bullets were sprayed everywhere. They hit the Volvo, other cars in the lot, fence posts and neighboring businesses. They blasted holes in a townhouse where a 12-year-old dove to the ground for cover and a four month old slept in his crib."



CBS news investigation concludes:
"The nature of the shooting suggests the officers lost sight of their own training and that the officers, caught up in the heat of the moment, failed to listen to their radios or coordinate their actions endangering not only their own lives but the lives of the public."


Official reviews will likely take years to complete.



Read the whole report:
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2014/05/06/police-shooting-frenzy-raises-concerns/

Were the officers prosecuted for murder? If the car was wedged and stuck and they couldnt get out, plus they were unarmed, they posed no threat to the officers.

 

[JRuby]

Assuming he can hit 20% of the time those remaining rounds/bullets are a threat to the surrounding area. To me that is reckless endangerment to citizens in the area when he cuts loose.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Assuming he can hit 20% of the time those remaining rounds/bullets are a threat to the surrounding area. To me that is reckless endangerment to citizens in the area when he cuts loose.

Didn't click but I'd imagine brick walls could hardly have been surmised to have been "threatened" or "recklessly endangered".
The whole world isn't compromised solely of infants cranial soft spots.

 

[JRuby]

Didn't click but I'd imagine brick walls could hardly have been surmised to have been "threatened" or "recklessly endangered".
The whole world isn't compromised solely of infants cranial soft spots.

Why would you subject good citizens to be endangered by anyone that believes in spray and pray? If he is that bad a shot maybe he needs a new career. He should be responsible for where everyone of those bullets go like we citizens are.

 

[Longwalkhome]

I didn't read 5 pages but did they determine what drugs he was on that the bullets had little effect?

Criminal take multiple gunshots when on pcp - Bing

Pametno pretraživanje u tražilici Bing olakÅ¡ava brzo pretraživanje onog Å¡to tražite i nagraÄuje vas.

www2.bing.com

 

[rjmt]

Were the officers prosecuted for murder? If the car was wedged and stuck and they couldnt get out, plus they were unarmed, they posed no threat to the officers.

it was stated in the article that he had shot a police officer and stole his patrol car earlier that day
the police had him listed as armed and dangerous
they didn't find out he was unarmed until after the shooting

 

[Knebel]

Okay so, lets say someone shoots at me, then drove off and crashed. I follow him and just unload that amount of bullets into them when they are immobilized. Did I act in self defense? Even tho they attacked me earlier but werent a threat anymore when they drove off. Do I have the right to follow them and gun them down or will I be trialed in a murder case?

 

[rjmt]

have you seen the response police agencies give when one of their own is shot or even shot at
happened in Portland/Vancouver just last week
Portland Police attempted to pull over a car in Portland, they took off, when an officer put out spike strips, the occupants of the car fired at him on the side of the road
Portland Police, Multnomah Sheriffs, Vancouver Police, Clark Co Sheriffs and a SWAT team chased them down, after they crossed State lines
2 of them surrendered when cornered by a SWAT team, they turned the dogs loose on the 3rd
Police anywhere tend to get very upset when you shoot at them

 

[Knebel]

Yes. I would get upset too if someone shot at me. I am saying that it is not legal to use lethal force if you life isnt in imminent danger. Someone trapped in a car that drove off from you is not putting you in imminent danger.

 

[Knebel]

have you seen the response police agencies give when one of their own is shot or even shot at
happened in Portland/Vancouver just last week
Portland Police attempted to pull over a car in Portland, they took off, when an officer put out spike strips, the occupants of the car fired at him on the side of the road
Portland Police, Multnomah Sheriffs, Vancouver Police, Clark Co Sheriffs and a SWAT team chased them down, after they crossed State lines
2 of them surrendered when cornered by a SWAT team, they turned the dogs loose on the 3rd
Police anywhere tend to get very upset when you shoot at them

Completely different scenario. Threat to the officers life was imminent and they had a right to defend themselfs. However, in that article, the two occupants were executed mob style without any regard to the safety of others around. It even said that a kid was almost struck from their bullets in a nearby home. Boy id love to be on the jury in a trial like this. Those officers are a danger to society and the community they are 'serving' and need to be off the streets.

 

[rjmt]

Yes. I would get upset too if someone shot at me. I am saying that it is not legal to use lethal force if you life isnt in imminent danger. Someone trapped in a car that drove off from you is not putting you in imminent danger.

that does not apply to law enforcement with a warrant, especially if the suspect has already shot, not just shot at, a police officer, and stolen a police car with weapons in it.
how did the police know they weren't armed? earlier in the day, they were armed and showed no reservations shooting responding officers

 

[rjmt]

that does not apply to law enforcement with a warrant, especially if the suspect has already shot, not just shot at, a police officer, and stolen a police car with weapons in it.
how did the police know they weren't armed? earlier in the day, they were armed and showed no reservations shooting responding officers

I am not a law enforcement professional, but my daughter has a very expensive degree in Criminal Justice and I referred to her on this issue

 

[Knebel]

that does not apply to law enforcement with a warrant, especially if the suspect has already shot, not just shot at, a police officer, and stolen a police car with weapons in it.
how did the police know they weren't armed? earlier in the day, they were armed and showed no reservations shooting responding officers

Well have they shot back when they crashed? If so it was justified to meet that with leathal force. But the article said they werent armed and the police found out after the shooting. This gives me more reason to believe that the two occupants werent doing anything threatening to those officers who literally endangered everyone around. I am not excusing the behavior of the two perpetrators, I am just saying that the shooting was unwarranted and illegal. Serious, do you think one of us gets away with it if you were to follow someone and shoot them like that? Police officers are humans, they make mistakes, they are SUPPOSED to know what and when its right to act in a certain way. And they sure need to follow the laws just like us average joes. THIS is what people are upset about. I see this a lot, its like a lion that wont give up on their 'catch'. Catch kill incapacitate at ANY price and disregard for public safety. Its rouge behavior that should not be tolerated. Law enforcement does that a lot.

 

[bradsteen]

Rules are different for law enforcement officers - they have to be because they enforce laws. Their responsibilities allow them to use reasonable force (up to/including deadly force) to accomplish that. Self defense is certainly a factor, but not the only factor. Might be worth googling "law enforcement use of force continuum" if you want to learn more about it.

Civilians do not have the authority to enforce laws, therefore circumstances where reasonable force (up to / including deadly force) can be used are generally limited to self defense, or defense of others.

 

[Knebel]

I understand that, but what circumstance prohibited them from arresting those people that were trapped in the car. They were trapped for a minute. Then executed. Then after 2mins they were still alive, so they were even more executed. This looks and sou ds like a mob assasination to me. Im sure thats not in the police handbook. Police clearly did not see any guns... i understand that the situation called for an approach that was definately dangerous for the officers, however it does sound like nobody ever really approached the car to make an arrest. It was just conspired that those two werent getting out alive. Its simply not right in so many ways. You have to know the law to enforce it. Law is pretty complicated, were does Law enforcement ususally get their law degrees from? They dont have one? Makes me think they might not even really know what the laws are they are enforcing and how to do that proper.

 

[rjmt]

I understand that, but what circumstance progibited them from arresting those people that were trapped in the car. They were trapped for a minute. Then executed. Then after 2mins they were still alive, so they were even more executed. Im sure thats not in the police handbook. Its simply not right in so many ways.

do you remember the FBI shootout in Miami in 1986? I lived in Boca at the time
the FBI boxed in 2 suspects so they couldn't get out of their car - and they hesitated
the two occupants of the car then opened fire killing 2 and wounding 4 FBI agents
the FBI didn't know if the occupants of the car were armed - but warrants were out for them
in their hesitation, 2 agents died
you think the Miami police have forgotten this?

 

[Knebel]

do you remember the FBI shootout in Miami in 1986? I lived in Boca at the time
the FBI boxed in 2 suspects so they couldn't get out of their car - and they hesitated
the two occupants of the car then opened fire killing 2 and wounding 4 FBI agents
the FBI didn't know if the occupants of the car were armed - but warrants were out for them
in their hesitation, 2 agents died
you think the Miami police have forgotten this?

I'm sure they have not forgotten it. And I am sorry but just because your Job comes with certain... dangers, doesn't make it okay to act out like that. If the job is too dangerous...quit and work at walmart. Id be scared bubblegumless too but there are better ways to handle this. Its not just about them shooting the two suspects but how they went about it. The whole situatuon did not call for that kind if shootout that massively endangered others.

If I was a bystander and got hit...geezus or the parent of that boy. I wouldnt rest until I knew each one of those officers is picking up trash by the freeway as their dayjob.

 

[rjmt]

I'm sure they have not forgotten it. And I am sorry but just because your Job comes with certain... dangers, doesn't make it okay to act out like that. If the job is too dangerous...quit and work at walmart. Id be scared bubblegumless too but there are better ways to handle this. Its not just about them shooting the two suspects but how they went about it. The whole situatuon did not call for that kind if shootout that massively endangered others.

If I was a bystander and got hit...geezus or the parent of that boy. I wouldnt rest until I knew each one of those officers is picking up trash by the freeway as their dayjob.

I shall agree to politely disagree
but that is the purpose of this forum

 

[bradsteen]

I understand that, but what circumstance prohibited them from arresting those people that were trapped in the car. They were trapped for a minute. Then executed. Then after 2mins they were still alive, so they were even more executed. This looks and sou ds like a mob assasination to me. Im sure thats not in the police handbook. Police clearly did not see any guns... i understand that the situation called for an approach that was definately dangerous for the officers, however it does sound like nobody ever really approached the car to make an arrest. It was just conspired that those two werent getting out alive. Its simply not right in so many ways. You have to know the law to enforce it. Law is pretty complicated, were does Law enforcement ususally get their law degrees from? They dont have one? Makes me think they might not even really know what the laws are they are enforcing and how to do that proper.

It sounds like you have some strong feelings about how they should have handled it. I would not jump to conclusions about how the situation went down, or about their motivations for acting the way they did. Instead I would try to learn more about how the police train and why they act the way they do in certain circumstances.

It's easy to look at a situation after the fact and judge someone's actions, but you really should be looking at it from their perspective. What did they know at the time? What information did they have? How did that information influence their decisions? It's easy to second guess from the comfort of your own home - making decisions in the moment when your life is on the line and your adrenaline is pumping is a different story. In other words, if you were in a situation where you had to use a gun, would you want people making assumptions about how or why you did what you did? Probably not - so you should probably extend them the same courtesy.