Which is Best AR: Daniel Defense XV/DDM4 vs Colt 6920/40 vs LMT vs Noveske

[OregonJohn]

I have the Next Gereration AR-15. Full teflon type finish on the whole gun. After break in shoot dry. No oily carbon mess in the gun. As far as price, it was a dealer promo and was under a grand. I have seen some at gun shows for the 1200 range. Great shooter and came with a very good trigger.

 

[4Freedom]

Another interesting one to put on my list, what about the Robinson XCR 7.62 x 39? Is the 7.62 x 39 less accurate? It seems likea good balacne between the 5.56 and .308, but I am not sure if any match grade or higher quality ammo is avaiable in the typical AK caliber. It may be nice to own this gun. Does anyone think the 7.62 x 39 XCR can handle the cheap russian ammo without much a prob, since it is gas piston system? Would the accuracy using higher grade 7.62 x 39 ammo be equal to that of higher grade of 5.56 ammo?

Perhaps, I am going too far here and should just stick with 5.56 caliber for a CQB. I have heard many advantages of 7.62 x 39 as far as penetration and reduced recoil from 7.62 x 51, just that the guns that shoot it are crappy.

 

[terrylf72]

As I have been reading and do my own research and following up on some of the info that has been posted.. I have come to a conclusion that maybe the " Best AR " is a hybrid. The best parts from all or a few of the best manufacturers. Wilson Combat, Larue, DD,.

I found a link to another forum that had this similar type or servey..

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=339618

 

[4Freedom]

How would people here compare a Colt 6920 , LMT MPR , Noveske to the much cheaper CMMG AR?

This guy has done a real serious review, examining the internal components of various AR models. His final conclusion was CMMG was on par with Colt, LMT and NOveske for much less of a price.

Here is a review:
http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462

Do others here agree with this guy?

 

[wichaka]

First of all the Military uses B-11595E steel for its barrels, not standard 4140 or 4150.

If it is 4140 or 4150 steel, but does not meet the 11595 specs, then it does not meet Military Specs.

The 11595 steel gets its strength properties over 4140/4150 by one of two ways...more carbon in the steel, or more carbon with Vanadium added in.

There is a specific chemical composition of all Mil-Spec barrel steel to be certified as B-11595E

Colt, LMT, Charles Daly, and Sabre Defense use the 11595 steel in their barrels, while others use regular 4140, 4150, or some variant.

What's the diff? get an over charged or like type of round, as see who's barrel is still standing.

Some food for thought;

There's a marketing ploy that's been around for a very long time, and it goes like this;

A Company invents a product;
The Company markets the product in such a way as to make the consumer think they can't live without it;
The Company goes in for the monetary kill!

One needs to think about what they are really going to use their AR for, and get one for that need. Just because someone wants one for the possible time when the world heads over the deep end, meaning the fecal matter contacts the bladed oscillator, one needs to really think about that.

How long can one person hold off X amount of people on their own? How many mags do you think you'll be able to go thru and survive, again by yourself? How many mags are you going to carry at one time, or have at your disposal at any given time? These questions have great importance.

BUT, if your AR won't run 800-1,000 rounds without malfunctioning, there's a problem.

Is there is a plus side for piston over gas? I don't think so...but that depends on the make of the AR. Ok, so the piston system is easier to clean...and the point? I guess get one if you don't want to clean as much.

I have had hundreds of different makes of AR's on my bench in close to 20 years of working on and building them, and have come to a few conclusions;

1) The gun industry has over used the term "Mil-Spec"
It's not a trade mark term, anyone can use it as they see fit...and that's the problem;

2) Not all parts, including lower receivers are made the same;

3) The AR platform, fed with good quality ammo will run for a few thousand rounds without a malfunction as long as the carrier is kept wet;

4) If the AR gets so filthy, it'll actually push the grime out;

Th AR's you mention from Colt, LMT or Noveske will serve you well and long.
I would never steer anyone wrong with a purchase of anything.

I would feel comfortable having any of the above models.

Here's a chart to look at;

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&hl=en

Look down at the bottom of the document, and you'll find tabs to click on for Explanation of Features; Specs, and Comparison. That should give you a good place to start.

As far as I know, which was last fall (2008)...there are only 2 companies accepted by the Military to produce AR's..that is Colt & FN. I know that every 6920 Colt produces, uses the same metal, and some of the very same parts that goes into the Military guns. If anyone has ever read the Military Spec for AR's, it's very long and will put the average person to sleep very fast!

 

[PDXGS]

Next Generation Arms
Noveske

Both are Oregon companies and both make top notch rifles. I shoot a Next Gen JC382 for Practical Rifle at Tri County and other clubs. It has been a great gun and has fired in extreme coditions without missing a beat. The are at least three other shooters with Next Gens.

 

[wichaka]

What model do you have?

How many rounds do you have thru it?

 

[toys]

this is just my take on it.

some people will buy something just becasue so and so has one. some will want it becasue some govmt agency uses it. if its good enough for uncle sam or the FBI, then its good enough for me.

also, some people want the newest most current technology even tho there hasnt been alot or any testing.

its good to do your research and to see whats up, but after a time, you will have to take the plunge and just buy one.

i belive that a majority of the people dont really NEED the piston, but want it cuz is the newest toy to be had.

im happy with my Colt and OAs.

 

[wichaka]

Good post!

 

[techieguy]

Next Generation Arms
Noveske

Both are Oregon companies and both make top notch rifles. I shoot a Next Gen JC382 for Practical Rifle at Tri County and other clubs. It has been a great gun and has fired in extreme coditions without missing a beat. The are at least three other shooters with Next Gens.

I see that Next Gen Arms high end rifles use Noveske barrels

 

[PDXGS]

I see that Next Gen Arms high end rifles use Noveske barrels

Yep, with Next Gen's ceramic coated bore.

 

[PDXGS]

What model do you have?

How many rounds do you have thru it?

JC 382 Patrol with about 1500 rnds through since Oct. The are three in my extended family- all are wickedly reliable and accurate.

 

[4Freedom]

Lot of good and sobering info here.. Thanks Wichaka, for the long detailed post.. I am reviewing the article of the M4 Comparison data. I have read briefly others who have explained the importance of various parts and how certain models qualify. I can already see I should ditch my RRA.

I would like a nice tacticoolish setup, but not if it sacrifices quality. I know most of the tactical stuff is just for show and play at the range. At least for me, I cannot see where I will need most of it, but, I suppose I would think of it as a nice item for my collection. OF course, quality comes first and I feel confident by Wichaka and others posts that Colt is not lacking quality in any way and it may just be the way I go. I was thinking if I did get a Colt 6920, I would remove the COlt handguards and replace with something like a Daniel Defense Omega quad rail.

Of course, I have to say I am intrigued by some of these other higher end models and some of the "new age" gas piston system guns. Nobody has any thoughts on durability, reliability and comparison in quality of components of a Robinson XCR, LWRC, Bushmaster Piston, Sig 5.56, etc?

Someone mentioned, FAL.. I suppose FAL has a disadvantage of being .308, not a good CQB rifle. I can forget about SCAR, that is outside my price range for a long time.


Those Next Generation arms are way out of my price range and I hear they are just a hodgepodge of various parts. I suppose the lifetime guarantee and the fact they are local is a benefit. I wonder if these guys can make any deals? I have heard some bad things though about some of their guns, like some improper construction of certain parts or inferior grade parts mixed with higher grade parts. Lost the review, but will have to try to find it again.

 

[eldbillbo]

Those Next Generation arms are way out of my price range.

But they go up to 11

(from spinal tap)

 

[wichaka]

I was able to put about 500+ rounds thru a Sig 556 SWAT model a few months ago. Its definitely a step up from the old model 556, or any of their 500 series rifles.

I had a 551 for awhile, but found it was very nose heavy...and didn't like the weight when being on point for hours on end.

The 556 SWAT I demo'd was the LE select fire version. It was a dream to shoot, held on target very well during long strings of full auto fire.

2 down sides I saw right away...the sharpness and lack of ergonomic of the selector switch, and the rail system had large gaps where, if you weren't careful, your fingers could easily slip thru and get burned on the barrel etc.

I've had the chance to fire a few piston models, and if I were looking at one...I would look seriously at the Sig.
As for durability, and life of the gun? Just came out, one won't know for a few years.

As for tacticool schtuff. I find if you get the basic rifle you want, you can get exactly the extra schtuff you want, and not be forced to accept the furniture that comes with the gun. So any of the base models you're looking at, Colt 6920, Noveske, or the LMT would fit the bill.

Here's my 6920 that's been on duty since 1998 and approaching 15,000 rounds. It is set up for everything that I do, and has served me well every one of those years. I have been offered to T&E rail systems from both LaRue and DD for this rifle. I turned down both, as I don't have a use for a rail system for what I do.

If someone ever says that you NEED a certain gun or part, run don't walk away from that person...there are many ways to skin a cat.

 

[4Freedom]

Well, I know the Colt 6920 is a gun that I will enjoy, a nice collectors piece, as well as duty, tactical, armageddon piece, etc.. Perhaps its a bit plain looking, but that comes second to functionality for me. I guess I already have a RRA, which although inferior functions and looks more or less like the COlt 6920.

I don't mind have 2 DI system ARs and am considering relinquishing my RRA rifle, but I will lose some money on it.


The Sig Swat 556 does look like a real cool, stylish and unique type of gun. It looks like it would make a good duty/battle rifle, but also collector's type of piece. Sadly, looking at the prices of Sig Swat 556, I don't think I can afford one. Maybe, I will have to investigate all the parts that come with it. It appears to come with Sig Quad Rails and Flip up Sights. The quality of these factory issued parts, is what I question. I assume for the $1800-$2200 price tag on this gun, you are paying for the fancy exterior equipment.

I would have considered the COlt 6940, but I have just read lots of bad reviews of its rail system and cheap exterior parts, in contrast to the top quality mechanical parts of the gun.


Still I am wondering what opinions people have of Robinson XCR, especially compared to the Sig 556 and COlt 6920. I like the idea of a $500.00 conversion kit where I can put on a 7.62 x 39 barrel. The only funny thing about this gun, is it requires AR 7.62 x 39 mags, which are only available by C-Products. Still, if it works and I can get the mags it would be a kinda cool fun gun, that I think would also be quite effective.

I am wanting to hear torture test results or long term users views of XCR. It looks likea real snazzy gun. I fear it may not hold up to the abuse that a Colt 6920 can. Although, with its gas piston system, I suppose, theoretically, it should be able to be dump in swamps of FLorida and still shoot a year later.

 

[orygun]

That post with the chart that you posted was extremely enlightening.

 

[wichaka]

That chart is ever changing as the makers make upgrades to their models.

It doesn't cover every gas system model, but gives a review of the most popular models from makers that are close to each other.

 

[Joe Link]

Per wichaka's advice, I put together my AR with an LMT Defender lower, a Colt SOCOM II 14.5" heavy barrel upper, and a GG&G BUIS. Though I've only been able to afford to put two boxes through it, it's a better shooter than any other AR I've owned or shot. So, though my experience is limited, I'd recommend both products.

 

[4Freedom]

Sorry to kinda get off the subject here, but is there anyway that I can get a short barrel on my AR in the state of Washington? I am thinking I cannot.. The laws here kinda suck.. Sometimes I really regret crossing the border.. Oh Well, no income tax is nice.. But, now I have dreams of owning a 10" barrel rifle or shotgun and wake up realizing it is not possible.


Joey, do you put BUIS sites on both your front and rear, or just rear? I was thinking I would like to avoid a rifle that has the built in front iron sight with the gas block, but I suppose I could live with it.. Anyone have any advice on what the best type of quad rail woudl be? Would a Daniel Defense Omega be the way to go if I get a Colt? I know Wichaka says he doesn't have use for them, and I probably would not either. I suppose I would get for the coolness factor.. Remember, I also part gun collector.. Of course, functionality, quality and being economical is of utmost importance to me, as well.

I am looking at the LMT MPR and I am tempted to get it.. I suppose finding a rifle that is parkerized is important , being in the muggy, moist NW.. Assuming I will be shooting this thing in our wet weather. I think it was either the LMT or Noveske that did not have a Parkerized part on the front of the barrel.. I am not sure about this.. Can someone educate me about this feature and what is lacking on either LMT or Noveske?

What disadvantages are their of having an AR-15 as compared to the M-16 bolt carrier which seems to be only present in the Colt and Noveske ARs? It seems LMT uses the AR15 bolt carrier.