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What type of ammo to carry CCW

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by Snowy Rivers, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers oregon Active Member

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    The subject of carry ammo comes up often, and in circles, I will hear many comments such as "Oh hey I just worked up a GREAT carry load for my "your fav brand of blaster"

    Any of us who have shot competition such as IPSC, SASS or other events that require a buttload of ammo on a regular basis are well versed with the loading press, and have a permanent callous on our hand from the press handle.

    We all have our favorite loads for various guns and the events we use them in, but for CCW we need to be looking at a different type of ammo


    Yeah, I know, much of this stuff sucks and some guns don't work well on some brands of ammo, but there is a brand, type and such that your CCW will run fine on.

    WE label it the "Courtroom Pitfall"

    After you use your CCW to protect innocent life, the battle to stay out of prison begins.

    Mr PROSECUTOR, who has been getting his A$$ handed to him in court by Perry Mason is desperate to win a case, and decides to use you as a spring board for his career.

    He calls the M E and inquires about the Dude you dispatched and what was he was shot with ??????

    The M E informs the prosecutor that it was a (X caliber handgun)
    and the bullet is fragmented and more testing and investigation is needed for a positive ID on the round.

    Mr prosecutor, now annoyed and getting desperate asks, "well, could this have been a reload/handload ???? "

    The M E responds, "anything is possible but" and is cut off by the prosecutors "thank you"

    Mr prosecutor now convenes a grand jury to review the case.
    Make no mistake here, there will not be any NRA bumper stickers on the cars of the grand jury members.

    The prosecutor begins, "ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Mr/Ms Jones (you) has always been captivated by the idea of carrying a gun and killing. So Mr/Ms Jones (you) took the required class, paid the fees and obtained a permit to carry a gun on his/her person.

    "Mr prosecutor"
    Now, this was not good enough, Mr/Ms Jones (you) stopped off at the local sporting goods shop and purchased a hand loading kit, and now sits in his/her basement at night, hand crafting KILLER LOADS.
    Now ladies and gentlemen, these rounds so lovingly hand crafted have no other purpose in this world except to kill people.

    The jury is now horrified, and you are now (in their mind) some sort of crazed individual that belongs locked up in maximum security.

    Ahhhhhhh, now if your attorney can get up and offer this one little statement.

    My client, Mr/Ms Jones carries "Brand X ammo" and this is the very same stuff that our own police department issues to the officers to carry on duty.

    Mr prosecutors case just went in the toilet, and good old Perry wins another one.

    I love my hand loads, I use the stuff for practice/training and any sport events, buttttttttttttttttt, I carry factory loads, ALWAYS.

    I currently carry a Glock 32 (357 sig caliber) and this stuff is not as easy to come by as say 9mm or 40 cal, but I have a few boxes of the stuff squirreled away.

    Always be sure that you TRY your chosen carry ammo to be sure your gun functions well with it.

    Revolvers will generally tolerate most anything.

    Be careful when it comes to PLUS P stuff, that your gun is rated for it.

    Another warning
    I am very uncomfortable with the "specialty carry ammo"
    Stuff that really causes huge internal damage, over and above factory ammo (police stuff)

    Remember Mr Prosecutor and his tactics.

    I hope this sparks some thought about what you carry.

  2. Nwcid

    Nwcid Yakima and N of Spokane Well-Known Member

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    Its a nice theory that is argued on gun boards over and over.

    Last time I checked there has never been a confirmed case where the choice of ammo made the deciding difference.
    jer fly, orygun, Blitzkrieg and 9 others like this.
  3. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers oregon Active Member

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    I have seen it tried.
    The issue is not to allow the jury to be polluted.

    There was a case several years ago, where a Ruger AC 556 was used in full auto to take down 2 hard core criminals bent on murder.

    This case was written about in several places, and I happen to know the individual who was the one with the Ruger.

    The prosecutor tacked at the case from the angle that "Mr Jones used a machine gun"

    The judge finally stopped the nonsense and instructed the jury to act only on the premise of, "was deadly force justified" and not what was used to deliver it.

    The case was dismissed and the AC 556 came back to it's rightful owner.

    Never underestimate the prosecution.

    They are not your friend, nor do they care about your civil rights either.

    Any tricks can be used, and they will be.
    Will they succeed ???? maybe, maybe not, but taking a chance is not in my play book.
    And I pass this info on to all who come to see me and take a class.

    A wise mentor or mine (one of many) who is years my senior, passed this to me over a decade ago, and with his experience in court, as well as on the street, I take it as good advice.

    A good client of mine who happens to be a criminal defense attorney, has hired me on several occasions to teach a class to a group of folks that frequent a martial arts studio he works with.
    His reaction to this scenario, was a broad smile of approval.]

    It's about common sense, and being prepared.

    To go out and win the gun fight and be fully in the right, and then get whacked in court by a puke prosecutor is just not what we need to be doing.

    My thoughts
    All due respects to others ideas

  4. Botte Hork

    Botte Hork Camas WA Well-Known Member

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    That prosecutor would have prosecuted **ANY** gun used and you have to remember it is their goal to get the person they deem responsible behind bars. There is a scorecard, like in any business, and performance is measured.

    Attorneys (this includes both defense as well as prosecution) will use anything to get to their preferred outcome. And as you said, it got thrown out, so no problem there. If you manage to lethally defend yourself with a bb gun you'll get friendly prosecutors, or lawyers representing the deceased's family, to try to blame the "weapon of war"-like looks of the thing.

    Use the ammo you want to use and you're comfortable with. For me that's hollowpoint stuff. I've carried that liberty ultra light stuff, but mostly carry subsonic heavy Speer Gold Dots JHPs. For when you really need to get the dot... uhh... point across, I guess. ;)
  5. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers oregon Active Member

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    WEll said.

    We still recommend against using hand loads for carry though

    Just an FYI
    I carry speer gold dots in my Glock 357
  6. cookie

    cookie THE SOCIALIST STATE OF KALI - FORNIA Well-Known Member

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    Seems that is the best thing to do but what does it matter what ammo is used in a justified shooting because it will be a published load from a reloading guide . It is well known ammo works best within a certain range.
  7. ZA_Survivalist

    ZA_Survivalist Oregon AK's all day.

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    RIP ammo. :)
  8. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers oregon Active Member

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    In reality, it makes absolutely no difference.

    Dead is dead, when the bad guy stops hurting good folks the deal is done.

    It's the liberal media that demonized the BLACK TALON rounds some years ago.

    These were labeled killer bullets, Black and evil.

    There is no rime no reason to it, just what libs do.

    Cover your butt, and use what the cops use, at least you are not gonna get accused of using some special Killer Bullet that you cooked up in your basement.

    None of it makes sense, but that does not stop the media from lying through their teeth and making up a story.
    You will never be portrayed in a good light after you use a weapon to defend yourself, its not the liberal way of doing business.

    I don't care if you saved the governors entire family from certain death at the hands of some crazed maniac, someones going to cry foul.

    IT'S JUST LIFE, so take every precaution you can.

  9. Dieselman

    Dieselman Oregon New Member

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    I reload and I CCW.

    That said, I carry factory ammo when I CCW. However, Not for the reasons listed. I carry Federal HST factory ammo because I feel the HST bullet is the very best on the market today and it is NOT available as a reloading component. Therefore I carry it in the form of factory ammo.
  10. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    I've carried handloads off and on for 25 years but if there is a suitable factory load I'll carry that first, HOWEVER most factory loads are no longer taper crimped, so even factory loads see my taper crimp before being carried
    Bruin and (deleted member) like this.
  11. erudne

    erudne The Pie Matrix PPL Say Sleeping W/Your Rifle Is A bad Thing? Bronze Supporter

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    Back when I 'was young' the 200 grn pure lead 38 spl was tested as best out of a 2" barrel.
    Obviously things have changed. Various MFGs make ammo tailored to usage, even down to barrel leangth. Go to their web sites and you'll find all the info needed
  12. billdeserthills

    billdeserthills Cave Creek, Arizony Well-Known Member

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    I mix up my ammo HP, FMJ, glasers, anything that feeds well
    I think it's more exciting that way, like playing the lottery
  13. cookie

    cookie THE SOCIALIST STATE OF KALI - FORNIA Well-Known Member

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    A justifiable shooting is just that and a bullet is designed to work within certain parameters . you can't make a killer bullet. there is printed data to prove it . Too slow or too fast bullet speed decreases the effectiveness of the bullet. That being said buy what the cops use, they are well proven.
  14. Caveman Jim

    Caveman Jim West of Oly Springer Slayer 2016 Volunteer

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    Just plain old Winchester 180 gr8 JUMP will do what needs to be done, no real need to have the latest and greatest. IMHO.
  15. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    Not going to be any question what my new carry load will be for my EAA Witness Elite 10MM. They will have to get in line before the taper crimp judge, first :D

  16. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers oregon Active Member

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    You are quite right in "you can't make a killer bullet" butttttttttttttttttttttt
    A jury that knows less than your pet ferret about guns, ammo and anything related to the subject can be led to believe anything by the prosecution.

    The media demonized the black talon a few years ago as being evil and a killer bullet and on that went.

    No we should not need to go into this garbage, but, it can happen, and it's just far better, as I mentioned, and a few other members, just use the factory stuff.

    I have seen some CCW carry only ammo marked LE, JUST to be sure of not having to deal with any BS

    You off some puke, and the ammo you used should not even be an issue, as should the type of gun, or that it had Pearl handles and Fluffy engraved on the slide.

    The issue is "Were you justified in using lethal force" nuff said.

    The media and many others can't get that part of the law through their little pea brains, as they are too wound up in their gun hating agenda.

    The media lies a lot, such as in the Hook shooting, The AR-15 was not used, but was found in the perps car.

    Now this story has changed so many times that the real truth will likely never be known.

    Polluting the facts to the point that they mean nothing is a standard media ploy any more.

    Create the facts to suit the agenda, instead of reporting the facts that exist in the case, this is the new media standard.

    I studied Journalism in school back in the 60's and early 70's and a reporters job was to ferret out and report the FACTS as they are out there on the ground, in the real world.

    Sure not the case now.


    The world as I see it :laugh:
  17. oli700

    oli700 Rogue Valley Well-Known Member

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    10mm auto, 180gr Gold Dot for the human jungle or 180/200gr XTP's in the sticks over 10.7 to 11 gr of Blue Dot...never has a factory round ever been shot through my CCP
  18. wichaka

    wichaka Wa State Well-Known Member

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    As I've posted many times before...

    Have been to enough shot infested autopsies over the years to get some solid facts that I've been unable to disprove;

    1 - Pistol bullets are unreliable;

    2 - One can use the same caliber/bullet weight etc. and shoot 10 different people in the same spot at the same angle and get 10 slightly different performance outcome with each;

    3 - Over penetration is over rated.

    I wouldn't consider any info. when it comes to one shot stop data. The old minimum standard response was two rounds, assess the situation and unload more if needed. Bad, very bad advice.

    Given the above three points, the minimum standard response should be at least three rounds, and up to five rounds...then assess the situation.

    Bullet tech. has made leaps and bounds since the old Black Talon stuff. If you're still using it, dump it and get something up to date. Before I hear the cry that the Winchester Ranger SXT is the same Black Talon bullet, think again. The SXT has been updated many times and the performance is very much higher than the original Talon bullet. They may look alike, except for color...they aint.


    Yep, the "Talons" are still there, easy to see...but its a complete redesign.

    As for Hydra-Shok, they were worthless from the start.

    I would recommend the following in any caliber;

    Federal HST

    Remington Golden Saber

    Speer Gold Dot

    Winchester SXT

    Federal Tactical...if you can find them.

    ...just wish they made all the above in Super 38!

    As for bullet and gun use in court cases, as has been said by a very astute judge above...was the situation justified...yes or no?

    One more thing...there's no more paperwork involved if you need to fire more than a few rounds to stop the threat.

    orygun, Nwcid, OFADAN and 7 others like this.
  19. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

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    Is it 1980 again? lol. Use the best that you can afford. Speaking of afford, the old Federal 9mm +P(+)9BPLE comes in fifty round boxes and, until recently, could be found at quite reasonable price. it's a proven biped smacker
  20. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers oregon Active Member

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    One common happening in a civy shooting is, the person threatened is likely to run the gun DRY before stopping.

    One instructor I had years ago, who at that time was in LE was adamant that there is a very real chance that most folks are going to use up the entire magazine full.

    This may not be true today with the high cap mags (15 or more)

    By the time the perp has absorbed a handful of rounds, the lethal threat "should be" pretty well finished.

    I would have to say this, that emptying a 15 round mag into some dudes chest might be viewed as excessive.

    Now on the other hand, once the Fight/Flight reflex kicks in and things reach condition RED, it very well could end up seeing the Slide lock back before the shooting stops.

    Even after personally having had 4 situations where I have pulled a gun on a perp, I can say, I DON'T REALLY KNOW HOW MANY ROUNDS i WOULD FIRE.

    My training would suggest stopping when the threat stops, but adrenaline is powerful stuff, and can alter the outcome of many things.

    It's likely not a good point to say with finality how many rounds are going to go down wind.

    Just some thoughts