What do you think about crossing your legs when moving laterally?

JRV · Mar 29, 2011

IUSMC are you trying to be a clown show? You want to make your green delta seal shenanigan comments, but yet try to brag about the USMC course you attended taught or whatever. WOW should we all be impressed by your special t-shirt? Because I'm surely not. I have no military/le background, yet every military/le/special t-shirt guy who has attended a CFS course I've taught has went away with new skills and actually have changed some of the ways "they have always done things" HMMMM go figure maybe everyone should be impressed by the t-shirt I had on that day. LOL

So if you truly have a warrior mindset and are serious about Self Defense dont dismiss a program or concepts you know nothing about. AS far as your muscle memory comment, LOL it's a learned response to a stimulis thats why your wife couldnt reload a gun as you said.

MA Duce · Mar 29, 2011

@ Grant Cunningham You posted : (BTW, muscles don't have memory. That term is an artifact of unrealistic training concepts.) The concept of muscle memory encapsulates the entire imprinting process of learning a manual skill. If you know how to drive a manual transmission, do you have to concentrate on where the stick goes each time you shift? If you work in a cubicle do you have to look before reaching for a particular spot? I spend much of my time in the cockpit of an aircraft. I can reach for and touch any control or switch without thinking about it. The famous "wax on, wax off" from the movie "The Karate Kid" was an example of neural imprinting which is also called "muscle memory" If you can walk, eat cereal while reading the morning paper, or draw a weapon and shoot while moving, you are using "muscle memory".

JRV · Mar 29, 2011

Muscle Memory is the repetition of movements enough times to make them become intuitive.

Yes we dont have to think about walking because after years of doing it becomes intutive, hence muscle memory is an antiquated term. As far as flying a plane and being able to reach down for a button, switch or any other control without looking is because you have been EXPOSED to it over and over, so it becomes INTUITIVE. Same as your analogy to drive a car, intuitive, a learned response.... not muscle memory.

MA Duce · Mar 29, 2011

JRV said:
Muscle Memory is the repetition of movements enough times to make them become intuitive.

Yes we dont have to think about walking because after years of doing it becomes intutive, hence muscle memory is an antiquated term. As far as flying a plane and being able to reach down for a button, switch or any other control without looking is because you have been EXPOSED to it over and over, so it becomes INTUITIVE. Same as your analogy to drive a car, intuitive, a learned response.... not muscle memory.

You're getting caught up in semantics....yes the muscles have no memory of their own...but neural imprinting of repetitive motion is a proven scientific fact, what you call "intuitive". Terminology varies, but the concept we are speaking of is identical.

JRV · Mar 29, 2011

So I guess if I put my hand on a hot stove and yank it away that would be muscle memory? No but your antiquated thoughts on muscle memory would deem it that.

MA Duce · Mar 29, 2011

JRV said:
So I guess if I put my hand on a hot stove and yank it away that would be muscle memory? No but your antiquated thoughts on muscle memory would deem it that.

You obviously are very confused, or purposefully avoiding the point. Neural imprinting, "Muscle memory", or what you refer to as "intuitive" motion, is the product of repeated practice over a range of motion. If you repeatedly put your hand on a hot stove that is stupidity, but by all means, be my guest.

MarkAd · Mar 29, 2011

JRV said:
So I guess if I put my hand on a hot stove and yank it away that would be muscle memory?

NO. That would be an involutary response to pain stimuli. Rather careless of you eh.

Kevatc · Mar 30, 2011

JRV and MA Duce: take a step back and relax a bit guys. You both are saying the same thing in a different way. JRV I will say you over-reached on your hot stove = muscle memory. Muscle memory is a learned motor pattern/response that is stored in that macorroni looking thing between your ears. You over-reached by trying to equate that with a innate reflexive and protective response that even an infant would have.

To get back to the issue at hand ..... it seems that there are logical times to "beat feet" no matter how you decide to do it to get cover and there are times where, if you have to move and shoot at the same time, then crossing your legs might not be a good thing to do and still try to maintain a modicum of accuracy.

Everyone in favor say "aye" all opposed ..... ???

JRV · Mar 30, 2011

MarkAd said:
NO. That would be an involutary response to pain stimuli. Rather careless of you eh.

No thats a instinctive reaction, not a involutary

Kevatc · Mar 30, 2011

JRV said:
No thats a instinctive reaction, not a involutary

You're sort of wrong on this although instinctive and involuntary could be used interchangeably if we weren't worried about the technical difference between them. However, involuntary is that reflexive response you have when you put your hand on a hot burner and instinctive is that flinch response you do when someone surprises you and you throw your arms up to protect yourself. You could learn to override the instinctive but a reflex is a reflex. It's monosynaptic meaning there is that pain impulse that goes to the spinal cord and right back out to the muscles that allow you to jerk back real quick. The impulse doesn't make it to the brain. On the other hand, the instinctive is a learned motor pattern or behavior. Put another way, a lion has the instinct to hunt or procreate and has the power to choose but if that lion steps on a cactus that reaction will be involuntary.

JRV · Mar 30, 2011

Kevatc said:
On the other hand, the instinctive is a learned motor pattern or behavior. .

REALLY??? You are going to try and correct me and then be wrong. REALLY?

Instincts are not learned. We dont learn a startle flinch or startle grasp and etc. Give me a break.

Kevatc · Mar 31, 2011

JRV said:
REALLY??? You are going to try and correct me and then be wrong. REALLY?

Instincts are not learned. We dont learn a startle flinch or startle grasp and etc. Give me a break.

The flinch example was wrong on my part but yes, you really are wrong .... really. A learned motor pattern such as walking that you suggested isn't intuitive. The motor pattern of drawing, aiming, squeezing, and follow through are not intuitive. If doing this was intuitive then we would all be really good at it and the need for good firearms instruction wouldn't be needed.

gunslinger1911 · Mar 31, 2011

crossing your legs is a great idea...especially if you want to end up on your rear...anyone worth their salt will tell you that your best bet is to stay low and keep a wide, stable base...start getting crossed up and you are inviting trouble

MountainBear · Apr 1, 2011

Hey Grant, I'm just passing on what I have heard about Rob Pincus. People can take everyone's opinions and use them to decide whether or not to take a class from a trainer. If you doubt the validity of my statements, by all means, dismiss them. It's no skin off my nose.

The fact is that I am fairly new to taking training. I've been a gunsmith for several years, and have been guilty of spending too much time tinkering and not enough time becoming proficient shooting. Over the last year and a half, I've been lucky to take classes in several disciplines, including revolver, scout rifle, and shotgun classes. The level of instruction has always been excellent. I've also been lucky to have been able to take classes when other instructors were participating as students. When discussing other instructors and schools, which seems to have come up several times in each class, the involved instructors were always very careful about speaking negatively about other schools and instructors. Each time however, when Mr. Pincus's name was brought up, eyes were rolled, and it was mentioned (on multiple, separate occasions) that when the individuals had been around Mr. Pincus, he had badmouthed other instructors, as well as their methods. I have no benefit from lying here Grant. I have no vested interest in any training school. I'm not trying to take business away from I.C.E. for the benefit of another school. I am simply passing along information that has been given to me by people who's opinion I respect.

I apologize if I've offended you or your friend Mr. Pincus. It was not meant to. Again, it was simply meant to pass along information. I have disagreed with some of the things that I've been taught at some of the schools I've attended, just as I disagree with the cross legged movement shown in the OP. The rest of the class might very well be very good, I don't know. But, as I've said, people who's opinion I respect, people who have never badmouthed another instructor in my presence, seem to think that Rob Pincus believes his way is the only way, and that other methods and intsructors aren't worth anything. Any instructor who cannot learn at least something from another instructor's class is not an instructor I want to learn from. Be confident in your system, yes. But realize there's often more than one correct way to skin a cat.

Just my .02$ Sorry for the anonymity Grant, but it's the internet. Have a great day!

Trlsmn · Apr 1, 2011

Subject

What do you think about crossing your legs when moving laterally?

Please take this thread back on track of the original subject and get away from the "he said she said" Instructor drama. When one needs to fall back on their training their instructor isn't going to be there to hold anyone's hand so their reputation doesn't matter for purposes of discussing technique.

P.S> If someone likes they could start a thread for instructor fanboy drama and maybe exchange 8 x10 glossies of your favorite trainers if that would make people happy?

mjbskwim · Apr 1, 2011

gunslinger1911 said:
crossing your legs is a great idea...especially if you want to end up on your rear...anyone worth their salt will tell you that your best bet is to stay low and keep a wide, stable base...start getting crossed up and you are inviting trouble

Basically,running sideways will get you trouble,so unless you train running sideways all the time,you are inviting trouble.

Football players do both,everyday in practice and it doesn't always work...so you mileage (footing?) may very.

iusmc2002 · Apr 1, 2011

JRV said:
IUSMC are you trying to be a clown show? You want to make your green delta seal shenanigan comments, but yet try to brag about the USMC course you attended taught or whatever. WOW should we all be impressed by your special t-shirt? Because I'm surely not. I have no military/le background, yet every military/le/special t-shirt guy who has attended a CFS course I've taught has went away with new skills and actually have changed some of the ways "they have always done things" HMMMM go figure maybe everyone should be impressed by the t-shirt I had on that day. LOL

So if you truly have a warrior mindset and are serious about Self Defense dont dismiss a program or concepts you know nothing about. AS far as your muscle memory comment, LOL it's a learned response to a stimulis thats why your wife couldnt reload a gun as you said.

Ok, so let me get this straight. You have NO military/LEO background, yet you INSTRUCT said folks in the finer points of CQB? So you have no PRACTICAL experience? Is that what I'm gathering? I wasn't bragging about the EMP course, or that I was an instructor (as you so plainly are), only establishing my experience/credentials. Whats your hang-up with T-shirts? Do your students get a pat on the butt and a pretty shirt after they complete your POI? If so, I guess everyone has their own teaching methods, whatever's clever.
Crossing your feet while engaging is bad. Period. Crossing your feet to run like Hades is completely different.
As for the rest of your non-sensical prattle about muscle memory, GIVE IT UP. You're on a site with tons of people who KNOW that muscles don't have actually memory, but have the ingrained training to accomplish a task without thinking about it because they've done it so many times. Its almost like the muscles have memorized the task and can do it without conscience thought. Antiquated or not, its a term many are familiar with and use and have been successful with it.

MA Duce · Apr 2, 2011

iusmc2002 said:
Ok, so let me get this straight. You have NO military/LEO background, yet you INSTRUCT said folks in the finer points of CQB? So you have no PRACTICAL experience? Is that what I'm gathering? I wasn't bragging about the EMP course, or that I was an instructor (as you so plainly are), only establishing my experience/credentials. Whats your hang-up with T-shirts? Do your students get a pat on the butt and a pretty shirt after they complete your POI? If so, I guess everyone has their own teaching methods, whatever's clever.
Crossing your feet while engaging is bad. Period. Crossing your feet to run like Hades is completely different.
As for the rest of your non-sensical prattle about muscle memory, GIVE IT UP. You're on a site with tons of people who KNOW that muscles don't have actually memory, but have the ingrained training to accomplish a task without thinking about it because they've done it so many times. Its almost like the muscles have memorized the task and can do it without conscience thought. Antiquated or not, its a term many are familiar with and use and have been successful with it.

Have you never heard the expression: Those who can, DO....Those who can't TEACH?? I too question the practicality of someone with no CQB experience teaching it. Theory is great, and if the course is in the theory of CQB..fine. But I'm sure you will agree being trained by someone who has been there done that is priceless, which is why the military advanced schools do just that. Although crossing your legs does have one use...in your first experience it MIGHT keep you from wetting your pants....