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We the people are now the enemy.
- Thread Starter U201491
- Start date
Getting worse every day! In my youth, "the policeman is our friend" mentality was common, including my Black and Latino friends. We had an officer that went around to the schools, Officer Faulkner, and gave lectures, stopping distance demonstrations and the like! He was a cool guy and we trusted him implicitly! I was fifty years old before I became wary of the fuzz, now the armored fuzz!
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As bad as the cops are, there are plenty of cops getting gunned down and not many people give a crap.. Definitely doesn't stir the media up like the shooting of a convenience store robber.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_shootings_of_Oakland_police_officers
I'm not trying to hijack the thread. As a matter of fact, I think the police should only be allowed to be armed with the same weapons , armor and vehicles that are available to ordinary citizens, nothing more and nothing less. They are a civilian peace keeping force and should not be given the power of a military entity. I even have my objections to the "militarization" of the military at the civil level. Basically, I don't want to see a military or federal police agencies patrolling our neighborhoods with the authority to arrest and incarcerate at the federal level, circumventing state and local laws.
One thing I will say is that both our cops and ordinary civilians today face a lot more dangers than they did back in like the 50s or even the 60s. So, I have no objections if a cop is wearing body-armor and less revealing outfit to protect his life going up against dangerous criminals.
Basically, I don't find the picture shown to be practical. I am not for castrating our police force, but I am also against them becoming a military entity with more power than ordinary, law-abiding citizens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_shootings_of_Oakland_police_officers
I'm not trying to hijack the thread. As a matter of fact, I think the police should only be allowed to be armed with the same weapons , armor and vehicles that are available to ordinary citizens, nothing more and nothing less. They are a civilian peace keeping force and should not be given the power of a military entity. I even have my objections to the "militarization" of the military at the civil level. Basically, I don't want to see a military or federal police agencies patrolling our neighborhoods with the authority to arrest and incarcerate at the federal level, circumventing state and local laws.
One thing I will say is that both our cops and ordinary civilians today face a lot more dangers than they did back in like the 50s or even the 60s. So, I have no objections if a cop is wearing body-armor and less revealing outfit to protect his life going up against dangerous criminals.
Basically, I don't find the picture shown to be practical. I am not for castrating our police force, but I am also against them becoming a military entity with more power than ordinary, law-abiding citizens.
Last Edited:
It is heartbreaking when a LEO is killed in the line of duty. I certainly am ok with basic body armor! Militarization of police, in my book, runs more toward using SWAT to serve warrants for things like avoiding paying the cigarette tax and the like.
What is different? I remember as I grew up that bad guys wore mask, beat and robbed you or maybe killed you. Today's laws it's hard to tell the good from the bad, both use the same tactics on a chosen victim. We the people are not the enemy, we work hard for what we have ( when it is possible to have a job) and most of us abide by the law. If this wasn't true then there would be a lot more cops to control the people
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Taku, I was going to ask if you had been reading "Pogo", again...
But this is too serious to make fun of... Yet, WE Are Not the Enemy...
That is something they want us to believe.
The ENEMY, is politicians Like "Uncle Fred Polan-How-do-you-SPELL-communist-zanski, who Uncle Paul went and did a Political Action with, Remember????
So ~Everything~ Will be OK, Uncle Paul, says so... (pardon me while I Ralph...)
The Govenor's First Order of Busy at Bullying for 2015, has been announced as Tighter gun restrictions... Which just Happens to be Uncle Fred's A-Genda... As well!!!!
But rest assured all is phyne, in the State of Or-Y-Gun....
you betcha. No need to bother ourselves with Political Insistence, that our Divinely Given Rights be left alone.... No Problems at all there, just move along, Nothing More to read...
philip
But this is too serious to make fun of... Yet, WE Are Not the Enemy...
That is something they want us to believe.
The ENEMY, is politicians Like "Uncle Fred Polan-How-do-you-SPELL-communist-zanski, who Uncle Paul went and did a Political Action with, Remember????
So ~Everything~ Will be OK, Uncle Paul, says so... (pardon me while I Ralph...)
The Govenor's First Order of Busy at Bullying for 2015, has been announced as Tighter gun restrictions... Which just Happens to be Uncle Fred's A-Genda... As well!!!!
But rest assured all is phyne, in the State of Or-Y-Gun....
you betcha. No need to bother ourselves with Political Insistence, that our Divinely Given Rights be left alone.... No Problems at all there, just move along, Nothing More to read...
philip
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I think most of this is BS.
If your talking about the federal armies than I completely agree, but most all LEOs I know have the same ideals we do.
Problem is they have to make a living and they do what their told. Problem is the liberals in charge and the liberals that become sheriffs and police chiefs that conform to the media and politically correct BS.
Look at all the sheriffs that have stood up and said they will not force unjust laws, ie abusive 2A laws.
If your talking about the federal armies than I completely agree, but most all LEOs I know have the same ideals we do.
Problem is they have to make a living and they do what their told. Problem is the liberals in charge and the liberals that become sheriffs and police chiefs that conform to the media and politically correct BS.
Look at all the sheriffs that have stood up and said they will not force unjust laws, ie abusive 2A laws.
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- #8
I think you hit it square on.
- Thread Starter
- #9
Most sheriffs and small town cops yes, but most big
city cops are drawn from the liberal pools or brainwashed into them.
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I think what largely goes unnoticed here is the attitude taken by many cops these days.
I've been a volunteer for a number of LE's over the years, and on one occasion during a training class, the TO started talking about how the police are a "paramilitary force". I dressed him down on this, because frankly this attitude scares the ever-loving S&&& out of me. This dovetails in with the "officer safety" mentality that has taken over other forces and results in all kinds of things being killed in it's name.
What it really boils down to is COIN (Counter Insurgency), many of the actions taken by police are the kind that create insurgencies. A cop comes to your house because a burglar alarm went off down the street and while he's rooting around in your backyard he shoots your dog. Great job officer friendly, you just made an enemy, who is going to tell his friends and you're going to have more enemies than you started the day with.
If a cop gets gunned down, and you didn't know him, sorry, it's a statistic unless you're a cop, or are related to one. A kid gets gunned down by cops for playing with a toy gun in a park? Do you have kids that play with toy guns in the park? I don't, but would I become an enemy of the police if they gunned down my niece or nephew in the park for playing with a toy gun? Hell yes I would. As it is, I view these actions with fear and suspicion when it's someone else's child.
The reality of the point is, that all of us relate to other people, we relate to neighborhood kids, friends, family and the like, unless that circle includes the police the only interaction we have with them is when we get pulled over because we broke some law, or that a-hole neighbor called because we're having a party that's too loud for them. (whether it is or isn't loud)
This is the problem, cops riding around in armored cars, shooting people's kids and dogs (much less other family members) separates them from the community they are supposed to "serve and protect". They do so at their own peril.
I've been a volunteer for a number of LE's over the years, and on one occasion during a training class, the TO started talking about how the police are a "paramilitary force". I dressed him down on this, because frankly this attitude scares the ever-loving S&&& out of me. This dovetails in with the "officer safety" mentality that has taken over other forces and results in all kinds of things being killed in it's name.
What it really boils down to is COIN (Counter Insurgency), many of the actions taken by police are the kind that create insurgencies. A cop comes to your house because a burglar alarm went off down the street and while he's rooting around in your backyard he shoots your dog. Great job officer friendly, you just made an enemy, who is going to tell his friends and you're going to have more enemies than you started the day with.
If a cop gets gunned down, and you didn't know him, sorry, it's a statistic unless you're a cop, or are related to one. A kid gets gunned down by cops for playing with a toy gun in a park? Do you have kids that play with toy guns in the park? I don't, but would I become an enemy of the police if they gunned down my niece or nephew in the park for playing with a toy gun? Hell yes I would. As it is, I view these actions with fear and suspicion when it's someone else's child.
The reality of the point is, that all of us relate to other people, we relate to neighborhood kids, friends, family and the like, unless that circle includes the police the only interaction we have with them is when we get pulled over because we broke some law, or that a-hole neighbor called because we're having a party that's too loud for them. (whether it is or isn't loud)
This is the problem, cops riding around in armored cars, shooting people's kids and dogs (much less other family members) separates them from the community they are supposed to "serve and protect". They do so at their own peril.
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Very well said.
- Thread Starter
- #12
There are a lot of opinions and most are not favorable of what is happening in the US.
This is reminiscent of Red Square Soviet Style and Beijing, except it is beginning in America, and it is going to end the same way if not reversed.
It ends with a lot of dead bodies on the ground. It is not a small concern. It gets worse every year, and there is nothing or anyone turning it around.
Other than rhetoric who even gives a damn anymore, is the attitude that seems prevalent. Just like every other thing in the political arena that is not far left here.
It all seems like a sick and cruel joke on our country.
https://www.google.com/search?num=1...2-1.1.0....0...1c..58.serp..1.0.0.ZbUHDFrPOZw
This is reminiscent of Red Square Soviet Style and Beijing, except it is beginning in America, and it is going to end the same way if not reversed.
It ends with a lot of dead bodies on the ground. It is not a small concern. It gets worse every year, and there is nothing or anyone turning it around.
Other than rhetoric who even gives a damn anymore, is the attitude that seems prevalent. Just like every other thing in the political arena that is not far left here.
It all seems like a sick and cruel joke on our country.
https://www.google.com/search?num=1...2-1.1.0....0...1c..58.serp..1.0.0.ZbUHDFrPOZw
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Frankly, I think we're pretty far from the armed uprising that some people think we are. However, what is at risk here is the entire legitimacy of the state. Personally I don't have a problem with their legitimacy being on the line, as they really haven't done much lately to fortify it.
What does get to me though, is the attitude that police have, that "it's a war out there and we need weapons to fight it" That's all fine and good, what remains however is we have 13+ years of counter insurgency warfare that's been exhaustively covered, analyzed, and reported yet, no one seems to have any interest in learning lessons from it. The "wars" in Afghanistan and Iraq ended as conventional wars pretty much by week 6, and became police actions after that.
I have talked to TONS of soldiers who came back, and had a lot of very sage advice about how to conduct operations, and not get killed by insurgents, as well as how to quell insurgencies that the institutions (army, government, DoD) refused to listen to and learn from. At the same time, more than a few of the people who serve us today as police officers were over there as part of national guard units (or were active duty and became police after coming back) and have this knowledge, but again it seems the institutions are either unwilling or unable to learn from it.
I'm going to put some freebies out here for anyone who is in the profession of policing:
1) Don't piss people off - This generally ends in you either creating another adversary.
2) If the person you're dealing with is hostile to you - this may be because they're a criminal, or more likely they have had bad experiences with cops in the past. This is your big chance to make someone question their hostility, or it may be your opportunity to cement their hatred of you personally, and their perception of the police.
3) Be public - when you need to do your reports, don't sit in your car, check out a department laptop and go sit in a coffee shop be friendly to the people you interact with. Business owners like this, and people who are friendly to you might engage you and give you valuable intelligence.
4) When you see a traffic light that's f'ed up get out and direct traffic. There's nothing more frustrating than sitting in a big long backup when there's a cop sitting in his car right at the intersection. This is a huge quality of life thing, and you can make a massive difference with very little effort.
If your department policies forbid any of these, you should strongly suggest to your managers that they start thinking about COIN and how to apply those lessons. What is important for everyone to remember about COIN is that it works both ways; the principles behind it can be applied as easily by insurgent groups as they can by the forces opposing them. Who wins is strictly a matter of who is better at applying them.
I would suggest reading this: http://warontherocks.com/2014/11/the-counterinsurgency-paradigm-shift/
Specifically the sections:
The Need for Counterinsurgency Capabilities
The Consequences of the Wrong Paradigm
And this:
I realize this was written for a military audience, but think about it, and internalize it.
It's also worth reading this:
http://faculty.washington.edu/plape/citiesaut11/readings/Feral Cities.pdf
I don't agree with all of the recommendations and points made, however most of these are more due to my personal biases, but the central conclusion that the ties that bind are as much infrastructural as they are cultural is a very salient point. What isn't really addressed, is that these ties can work for and against, and can have long lasting implications.
What does get to me though, is the attitude that police have, that "it's a war out there and we need weapons to fight it" That's all fine and good, what remains however is we have 13+ years of counter insurgency warfare that's been exhaustively covered, analyzed, and reported yet, no one seems to have any interest in learning lessons from it. The "wars" in Afghanistan and Iraq ended as conventional wars pretty much by week 6, and became police actions after that.
I have talked to TONS of soldiers who came back, and had a lot of very sage advice about how to conduct operations, and not get killed by insurgents, as well as how to quell insurgencies that the institutions (army, government, DoD) refused to listen to and learn from. At the same time, more than a few of the people who serve us today as police officers were over there as part of national guard units (or were active duty and became police after coming back) and have this knowledge, but again it seems the institutions are either unwilling or unable to learn from it.
I'm going to put some freebies out here for anyone who is in the profession of policing:
1) Don't piss people off - This generally ends in you either creating another adversary.
2) If the person you're dealing with is hostile to you - this may be because they're a criminal, or more likely they have had bad experiences with cops in the past. This is your big chance to make someone question their hostility, or it may be your opportunity to cement their hatred of you personally, and their perception of the police.
3) Be public - when you need to do your reports, don't sit in your car, check out a department laptop and go sit in a coffee shop be friendly to the people you interact with. Business owners like this, and people who are friendly to you might engage you and give you valuable intelligence.
4) When you see a traffic light that's f'ed up get out and direct traffic. There's nothing more frustrating than sitting in a big long backup when there's a cop sitting in his car right at the intersection. This is a huge quality of life thing, and you can make a massive difference with very little effort.
If your department policies forbid any of these, you should strongly suggest to your managers that they start thinking about COIN and how to apply those lessons. What is important for everyone to remember about COIN is that it works both ways; the principles behind it can be applied as easily by insurgent groups as they can by the forces opposing them. Who wins is strictly a matter of who is better at applying them.
I would suggest reading this: http://warontherocks.com/2014/11/the-counterinsurgency-paradigm-shift/
Specifically the sections:
The Need for Counterinsurgency Capabilities
The Consequences of the Wrong Paradigm
And this:
I realize this was written for a military audience, but think about it, and internalize it.
It's also worth reading this:
http://faculty.washington.edu/plape/citiesaut11/readings/Feral Cities.pdf
I don't agree with all of the recommendations and points made, however most of these are more due to my personal biases, but the central conclusion that the ties that bind are as much infrastructural as they are cultural is a very salient point. What isn't really addressed, is that these ties can work for and against, and can have long lasting implications.
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Well said, I heard the same, problem is the military and govt doesn't want to end the war and kill the enemy their goal was to "assist" and make friends.
They wanted to empower the locals which is a joke, and they didn't want to make more enemies. And anytime your fighting insurgents who use your rules of war against you, you will likely lose. We lived by those rules to a T, to the point hesitation became part of your senses for fear of being thrown in the brig for life because you fought in war.
In my opinion either you go to war and destroy the enemy and those who help them or you bring our boys and girls home.
As far as our community cops, I think mult county said a lot several years ago by switching to a more military style uniform, and everyone adding APCs and MRAPs to their arsenals.
Either way I don't believe the problem is with our LEOs, they are good men and women doing an impossible job, problem is the law makers, judges, and those who wish to live a PC manner making this world more dangerous.
They wanted to empower the locals which is a joke, and they didn't want to make more enemies. And anytime your fighting insurgents who use your rules of war against you, you will likely lose. We lived by those rules to a T, to the point hesitation became part of your senses for fear of being thrown in the brig for life because you fought in war.
In my opinion either you go to war and destroy the enemy and those who help them or you bring our boys and girls home.
As far as our community cops, I think mult county said a lot several years ago by switching to a more military style uniform, and everyone adding APCs and MRAPs to their arsenals.
Either way I don't believe the problem is with our LEOs, they are good men and women doing an impossible job, problem is the law makers, judges, and those who wish to live a PC manner making this world more dangerous.
and there's the problem they will follow the illegal orders also and stomp on our civil rights because of the liberals in charge telling them what to do so they can stay in charge.
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It's not really brainwashing.
Heck there was a kid at Bullseye in tacoma years ago that said being in the army and not going to war was like having sex without the orgasm.
Some kids get into LE to BE that door breaker.They want to take someone down.Otherwise why do it?
Not saying all but I have met them.Those are the ones the departments recruit for the SWAT type situations like the unpaid parking tickets.
Those are the ones that look at us as 'just citizens' not fellow countrymen
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I am not too sure there are "Plenty of cops getting gunned down". How many were killed in the line of duty last year or the year before?
My facts may be off, but I believe the number is a lot lower than most folks assume.
However, the assumption by Law Enforcement that every day they will have to dodge bullets has created an environment where they swagger around in their armored vehicles, violating everyone's civil rights with impunity. They justify the "Shoot first, sort it out later" attitude with the rare, tragic death of an officer.
Who remembers the photo of the armored car in Massachusetts with the cop in the turret, aiming an assault rifle directly at the guy taking the picture from inside his house? How many cars were searched at gunpoint in Santa Barbara, even after they knew they had Dorner cornered? How many homes were invaded by the cops , with the residents herded into a room and held at gunpoint, while the cops searched for the Boston Bomber? How many bullets were fired into a newspaper delivery pickup containing two unarmed women in California? How many times will the SWAT Team get called out in Vancouver, Washington and respond by shooting the guy that called 911 to begin with?
In the last year or two??
Bet far more people have been killed by cops than the other way around.
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I was probably exaggerating a little...
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What the large institutions like NATO, and the army really have yet to figure out is that top-down control rarely works because it is simply impossible to micromanage something in the battle space to the level they desire. This is one of those fundamental points of William S. Lind's "Into the fourth generation", that in a decentralized environment exercising a high degree of low level control wears out your forces and makes them less successful.
I really think you're giving "Liberals" a bad rap here. This is a major reason why I stayed away from your board, if you look at what liberal means in the classic context it is not a pro-state, pro-control, manner. The fact that we give ourselves labels, and then say everyone of a different label is unworthy goes right back to the playground. What we're really describing here is a cult of statism, or a cult of elitism. People who think their purpose in life is simply to tell everyone else what to do, and that the only solution to every problem is more government and more control. To say this is "liberalism" is a twisted visage of what it originally meant.
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- #20
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