Veteran kills officer

[clearconscience]

In the case of the guy that shot that Officer dancing on the grave isn't right......But I would take a dump on it.

 

[viperjody]

it is easy to see why cops who are shown footage like this have a black and white attitude towards someone who is unresponsive to requests.... I guess it comes down to some can make good judgement calls and some cannot. Not all cops are trigger happy, and every situation is different. In this case, the cop made a bad decision and he paid his life for it. I hope things like this never happen again, but I feel the same about John the woodcarver....

 

[MountainBear]

I just wrote a very long response. I then deleted it. This story sucks. An officer was killed. His family is no longer blessed with his life. All I can hope is that if the suspect is found guilty, I hope all the people on here call for his head like they do to an officer when he is involved in a shooting. But it won't happen. People around here have a tendency to suspect a police officer is guilty until proven innocent, and then still guilty cause he should have done something different. Will this be the same way?

 

[Scott]

I have seen and read many situations where I feel police did the wrong thing but in this video I would have given him the ok to shoot him in the head when we produced a handgun and disobeyed orders. I belive he shood have tased him when the guy went towards his truck.

Most cops should be restrained enough like this one until it is the time to shoot. He seemed like a very dedicated police officer and God bless him and his family.

I honestly hope this guy gets fried and I believe he will.

 

[mjbskwim]

OK,I really hate all the cop bashing on this forum,but why the bubblegum did the cop wait so long to just shoot the guy?
And how many times did he miss?

The guy came nose to nose with the cop,how come no mace?
How come nothing until the guy pulled out the rifle?

To **** with regulations,if the guy is pulling a rifle on me ,he's getting shot.

I'm sure it's over for his family by now,but my god,he wasn't very smart in that situation.

 

[mjbskwim]

As soon as he saw the gun he should have, and had the right to shoot!

Ya think?
Maybe if he had his gun trained on the guy,while he was loading the rifle,he would still be alive.

I think the officer had never even thought of this situation.Or hadn't has it happen in his area for too long and became lackadaisical,which happens when they just do traffic stops.

They need to be like the Tacoma cops and think of it as a bad situation every stop.

 

[009]

wow. the mace would prob. have made a diff. outcome of the situation.

 

[jordanvraptor]

That's a sad one. Learn from it.

 

[WhyteCheddar]

I didnt notice if he was wearing a taser. If this did happen in 1998 then it is more than likely that he was not.
I also wonder if going hands on with him the first time he approached him would have been a good idea. But sometimes folks displaying that type of behavior are on drugs and you dont always want to go to ground with someone like that either.
Its sad but sometimes folks behavior just calls for them to forfeit their life and in this case the old mans behavior was begging for it once he picked up a weapon.
I am sorry the LEO waited. Tragic.

 

[JohnWayne]

In the case of the guy that shot that Officer dancing on the grave isn't right......But I would take a dump on it.

Huh?:huh:

 

[4Freedom]

Here's some words I would never say to a deranged guy, claiming to be a Vietnam Vet: "Put the gun down, don't get the gun, put it down." Shoot first ask questions later. Yes, I know this is not a good slogan for every scenario, but it is good in this case. The guy was hostile and dangerous and, being a victim of a surprise attack, myself, I know how unpredictable a person like this can be. This officer was assuming that the person would not harm him. A good officer should always realize that any person can harm you. I was almost beaten to death by a guy I thought was harmless. He attacked me from behind and I was caught by surprise. I am lucky to be alive. I could have ended the same way as this officer.

I would have unloaded my magazine in this guy the minute he started reaching in the truck and disobeyed my command to put his hands up. This guy obviously had a death wish right when he started coming at the officer. I would have never even of let that guy come forward to me.

Can anyone LEO or person who is more knowledge of the laws answer this question. I like to know if you have your gun pulled on an aggressive subject telling him to put his hands up and freeze and if he doesn't comply, are you allowed to use lethal force? What is to stop some maniac from charging the officer and trying to take his gun? I ask this question even for self-defense shoot situations. What if some aggressive person charges me, am I allowed to draw my weapon and tell him to get back? This scenario is something I have wondered about, because I was told a shooting is justified if you are attacked, which seems absurd because by that time it is too late. However, I am sure an officer has more leeway in defense shoots than a civilian.

 

[WhyteCheddar]

Here's some words I would never say to a deranged guy, claiming to be a Vietnam Vet: "Put the gun down, don't get the gun, put it down." Shoot first ask questions later. Yes, I know this is not a good slogan for every scenario, but it is good in this case. The guy was hostile and dangerous and, being a victim of a surprise attack, myself, I know how unpredictable a person like this can be. This officer was assuming that the person would not harm him. A good officer should always realize that any person can harm you. I was almost beaten to death by a guy I thought was harmless. He attacked me from behind and I was caught by surprise. I am lucky to be alive. I could have ended the same way as this officer.

I would have unloaded my magazine in this guy the minute he started reaching in the truck and disobeyed my command to put his hands up. This guy obviously had a death wish right when he started coming at the officer. I would have never even of let that guy come forward to me.

Can anyone LEO or person who is more knowledge of the laws answer this question. I like to know if you have your gun pulled on an aggressive subject telling him to put his hands up and freeze and if he doesn't comply, are you allowed to use lethal force? What is to stop some maniac from charging the officer and trying to take his gun? I ask this question even for self-defense shoot situations. What if some aggressive person charges me, am I allowed to draw my weapon and tell him to get back? This scenario is something I have wondered about, because I was told a shooting is justified if you are attacked, which seems absurd because by that time it is too late. However, I am sure an officer has more leeway in defense shoots than a civilian.

As far as I know, the same laws of use of lethal force that apply to citizens also apply to LEOs (states differ in these laws and not knowing where this happened I have no idea what their laws are so I am just refering to Oregon) in Oregon. That means that if this was to happen in OR. and the LEO was to of shot the perp as he approached him initially with no weapon, the LEO would have to persuade a jury beyond a reasonable doublt that he was in fear of death or serious physical inury from an apparently unarmed man. Every jury is different so its hard to imagine how one may decide but my guess is that it would be a tough one for the LEO in that situation. Then would come the inevitable civil trial where the preponderance of evidence sways the ruling. It would be a tough win for the LEO if the perp had no weapon in his hand. JMHO

 

[mjbskwim]

You probably have more rights than a LEO when pulling a gun.The have their protocol to follow.
They have things to consider,that the department will want to know
We can be ready and have the gun cleared,when some departments need to have the gun pointed at them.

If you are of small stature,disabled,a woman,elderly,you have more leeway than a 230# guy like me.
I should fight the guy off I guess.Even though he has 2oz of drugs in him.
Some kind of equal force rules
I like the 6/12 rule myself

I just think this guy was a traffic cop and never even thought of the scenario. He did ,just about everything wrong,against a really screwed up person.

 

[cybersomatix]

As soon as he saw the gun he should have, and had the right to shoot!

He also could've taken him in for disorderly conduct when he first became very belligerent and got into his face for no reason... then he shouldn't have allowed him to return to and reach into his truck after becoming belligerent... but yeah... yelling drop the gun and not backing that up with fire (even a warning shot into the ground) was probably his biggest mistake.

 

[tpsg]

He simply overwhelmed the young officer and took his mind. This is a good example of the quote "A MAN IS MOST DANGEROUS WHEN HE HAS NOTHING TO LOOSE" It was evident the cop was intimidated by this guy and ounce he had broke contact the cop did not engage causing a window of opportunity to grab his rifle. This man being a viet nam vet probaly killed more people than small pox. This being said the LEO hesitated, went blank and it cost him his life. my 2 cents

 

[centerfire]

Truly a sad situation.
I agree with some of the other posts that the officer was not thinking clearly and hesitated too long and long enough for the perp to get the upper hand.
IMHO he should have tased/shot him as soon as he saw him with the rifle.
I would think one of the most important things would be to treat every traffic stop as if something like this could happen.
Watching a video like that (to me anyway) makes me understand why cops are a bit more likely to shoot or engage to make sure they dont become the victim (except for the Seattle wood carver video. That seems a bit excessive based only on the video we saw from the cops cruiser).

 

[RVTECH]

Another thing that may have changed the outcome would have been if the officer had simply retreated to the safety of his vehicle as soon as the suspect went back to his. Retreating would have given him the opportunity to retrieve a long arm, provide cover or mobility to get out of danger or follow the suspect if he fled. I do not know if they teach this in LE academy anymore but when I was in AF/MC Law Enforcement Academy we were.

 

[rsmccsman]

I saw this footage at a Law Enforcement training I attended earlier this year on how to recognize the nonverbal cues that you are about to be violently attacked. The signs are all there if you know what to look for. That little dance the guy does where he raises his hands in the air and claps his hand together is a classic "antigravity" movement. If you see someone do this or take their shirt off, or raising their arms or untucking their shirt etc, you will know that they are about to fight/attack so you better be ready. This officer tragically did not recognize any of them and couldn't understand and respond to what he was seeing. His training did not include what to do when someone doesn't do what you tell them to do. In all his scenario trainings I bet that the "bad guy" being played by a training officer complied with his verbal commands. Therefore in his mind he could not deal with what was happening as real. The bad guy being a "combat vet" had been conditioned to take action and win the battle at all cost. If you are dealing with someone like this you must take decisive action while you still have the tactical advantage instead of just standing there telling a guy to" stop or I'll say stop again." You usually only have a split second to make this decision. In this case the officer had quite a few seconds to respond but failed to do so. He did not need to be a quick draw but his gun needed to be out and as soon as the bad guy reached into the truck he needed to neutralize the threat. By not obeying the officer's commands the bad guy let it be known that he could not be reasoned with or expected to act like a rational person. This was a horrible tragic event but hopefully the lesson of it can save numerous lives.

 

[Tactical SS]

I've seen this before, still gets me sick to this day, I highly recommend not watching it.

 

[SonicBlue03]

Tragic, just like the video from Texas where the old man shoots the cop in his car. Both videos you can hear the agonal breathing before death.

This one is a good trainer for LEOs in that the officer didn't have nor at any time take control of the situation. The opponent controlled the situation and dictated the pace; the officer sounds inexperienced and unsure, and in a dog-eat-dog world got eaten.

It's also why I don't mind when officers try to establish an aggressive position for something as simple as a traffic stop. A lot of folks on this forum complain about how cops are jerks to them or whatnot, but maybe they should watch this video and the others out there like it and understand that cops never know when someone is going to gun them down in their own cars, or a coffee shop, or whatnot.