Times they are a' changin! .22 on the shelf-

[Joe13]

Joe, you know I respect you as a member here. But I sure won't buy your ammo if its more than retail. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me or other buyers what your time is worth. Or how much gas you used. Or the wear and tear on your car. I'd be happy absorbing those costs on my own vehicle and my own time to see some .22 on the shelves. I don't think I should pay for someones expenses that are able to snag the ammo off the shelf faster than I am able to. So I just don't shoot .22. I have some. And I'm ok with that. The market will sooner or later be flooded to the point that .22 will be worth squat. It's not a good investment. The manufacturers are producing it in record amounts. Supply and demand eventually meet somewhere and I think supply has the upper hand here.

Certainly don't mean to say there is a good justification, more that I just can't understand how people are "making money" at all.

 

[GuyBMeredith]

Makes shooting reloaded .38 spl and .357 mag attractive cost wise. I'm good for that until this silliness stops.

 

[40calruler]

I do not see how you make money with ammo either. These days it is so marked up in most stores it is insane. I went into the shop across from bi mart on western in beaverton and prior to walking out of bi mart and happening to glance that way I had no idea that shop was even there. Not that I regret not knowing after going in. They had 22lr but at 37 for 333 rds. They had guns but so few I have no idea what they are even doing there. I would estimate 10 pistols and 10 rifles total. Pretty much nothing but silencers and accessories that are far overpriced. I guess if you want a suppressor there ya go but anything else it was pretty disappointing.

 

[Nightcrawler]

Joe, I actually work nights, so I'm sleeping at 9-9:30. It was a general statement. There are lots of websites you can go to that will want you to pay $50 for 500 rounds.

Somehow, there's this line of thinking that .10 a round is the new norm. I just try to get some here & there to take the kids shootin' and I won't pay that much for it. I don't mind the stores that limit 22LR purchases, like Outdoor Emporium- at least it gives the little guy to pick up a box, two or three without paying those prices.

 

[BroncoFan]

Yes, opportunists leveraging the circumstances. Damn shame either way.

It's a dog eat dog world - and sometimes it's the other way around.

Dog eat dog and a lot of people are wearing Milkbone underwear!
I think it's the darn ground squirrels here in Eastern Oregon. I know they have taken a lot of my 22. But I was a hoarder when hoarding wasn't cool. It'll be a cold day in Salem when I pay $50 for a brick of 22. Not to be overly simplistic, but it only makes sense that demand is higher than ever, as gun sales are higher than ever. Thrown in some opportunistic scalpers and an equal number of unprepared gun owners and you have the makings of a shortage.

 

[Joe13]

Joe, I actually work nights, so I'm sleeping at 9-9:30. It was a general statement. There are lots of websites you can go to that will want you to pay $50 for 500 rounds.

Somehow, there's this line of thinking that .10 a round is the new norm. I just try to get some here & there to take the kids shootin' and I won't pay that much for it. I don't mind the stores that limit 22LR purchases, like Outdoor Emporium- at least it gives the little guy to pick up a box, two or three without paying those prices.

Sorry boss,

That wasn't ment to be directed at you personally - just seems to be a common statement that those of us without real jobs are somehow making a killing reselling ammo.

 

[albin25]

High School Econ 101....

" Its how capitalism works "
Is it?...Capitalism is a system that allows private citizens to invest (pool) their funds by purchasing shares... what are the scalpers selling shares of? to raise capital for?...a new factory? Where is this RipoffAmmo inc. stock being sold? are they paying dividends?

Scalpers are a "Black Market". They strip product from store shelves and hoard/re-sell it at rip-off prices ... much like the old Soviet model of the "50's -'80's. where gangs would buy all the milk and dump most in the rivers then sell what was left for huge markups.

"Supply and Demand"
Wrong again..."supply" in that equation is based on having un-obstructed accumulation of product by it's manufacturer or creator to fill an actual natural "demand" for that product. It is simply a way to determine what level of production is needed to sell enough product to meet demand at a price point...simply put, it just reveals where the "break even point" is.
Black markets cause a disruption of the supply/demand relationship. The result is a market too unpredictable ( the actual demand is unknown) for manufacturers to be willing to risk capital on expansion of production...output will stagnate then even decline if they see the product becoming less attractive. (see post #62) ( in this instance, they will watch the sales levels of things like 22lr firearms).


A quick cure is a sort of "poison pill"...
Manufacturers would need to raise the price so high that scalpers can't find suckers for what they are buying retail to re-sell, and the black market dries up. It's very costly and the dangers are obvious. Or, they would need to massively increase their investment to ramp up supply...their goal of flooding the market would also result in eventual idle machines, full warehouses, and huge costs that will effect profits for years.

 

[NONAME762]

So I stopped by the Coastal Farm Store in Auburn on my way home from work, just to see if they had any 62gr 5.56. That was a no go but I got to talkin to the counter guy who was pretty open and friendly. He told me they had sold 600 guns since they put the gun counter in the first of October, which seems pretty good to me. I told him I came in on the grand opening but had not been in since. I said "yep, bought my box of .22 and left, Don't suppose you have any .22 now?" He said "Sure! What are you looking for?" I was like "I have a choice?"

So he had .22 shorts, .22 Longs, and quite a number of .22LR choices. Some CCI Sub Sonic @ $3.79 a box Some Federal Ultra Match for like $4.29 a box. They had some CCI stingers @ 6.99 a box. I think there was actually something else too. Not 2005 prices but not absurd either. He said that they pretty consistently have stock on hand. There is a limit of three boxes per day per kind so its not like the old days but just the fact that he said they consistently have stock I thought was a sign things are headed back to normal.

Yozaaaaaa you lucky pup!! About 7 weeks ago I saw CCI Stingers at $7.95 in Woolley. I about fell down with a heart attack. I asked how much you got. At 16 cents per round I bought just 2 lousy boxes. That is the highest I've EVER PAID for 22 in my life. And yeah I was grousing about it. 3 or 4 days later I called them and upon hearing the go code jumped in my sled and bought 5 more boxes. I really couldn't afford it but I haven't seen Stinger ammo AT ALL in about 5 years so I made like a Hoover. I haven't so much as fired one single round of it-but there's a fresh box of it in my truck.

Ya know some of you youngin's whats still single or divorced might should haul on over to them Hippie Food Co-ops for some organic grub and eye candy and check out all the hot little Hippie Mama's from 20 to 60 what shop them places. Get your snoots all soaked up in Patchouli vanilla and musk...slick your one hair back and put out your best moves. Or if Hippie gals don't toot your whistle find ya a little Redneck gal.

Ya know Iron Monster we got us a Coastal Farm store in my AO too. Found it accidental like maybe 2 years ago. And about the time y'all was getting your gun counter our store was getting a gun counter too. They have some way cute girls working there and SOME OF THEM are near my age. Yahoo! I'm gonna slide over there here right quick and see what 22 they might have.

La coo coo racha...

 

[Greenbug]

At any rate, whatever the reason, I think we can all agree that we are pretty tired of this situation that has been dragging on for the better part of 3 YEARS now.

 

[IronMonster]

High School Econ 101....

" Its how capitalism works "
Is it?...Capitalism is a system that allows private citizens to invest (pool) their funds by purchasing shares... what are the scalpers selling shares of? to raise capital for?...a new factory? Where is this RipoffAmmo inc. stock being sold? are they paying dividends?

Scalpers are a "Black Market". They strip product from store shelves and hoard/re-sell it at rip-off prices ... much like the old Soviet model of the "50's -'80's. where gangs would buy all the milk and dump most in the rivers then sell what was left for huge markups.

"Supply and Demand"
Wrong again..."supply" in that equation is based on having un-obstructed accumulation of product by it's manufacturer or creator to fill an actual natural "demand" for that product. It is simply a way to determine what level of production is needed to sell enough product to meet demand at a price point...simply put, it just reveals where the "break even point" is.
Black markets cause a disruption of the supply/demand relationship. The result is a market too unpredictable ( the actual demand is unknown) for manufacturers to be willing to risk capital on expansion of production...output will stagnate then even decline if they see the product becoming less attractive. (see post #62) ( in this instance, they will watch the sales levels of things like 22lr firearms).


A quick cure is a sort of "poison pill"...
Manufacturers would need to raise the price so high that scalpers can't find suckers for what they are buying retail to re-sell, and the black market dries up. It's very costly and the dangers are obvious. Or, they would need to massively increase their investment to ramp up supply...their goal of flooding the market would also result in eventual idle machines, full warehouses, and huge costs that will effect profits for years.

That is laughable. Its clear you where asleep in economics class

There are several things that define Capitalism, One is The use of the price mechanism in order to allocate capital goods between competing uses

From Wikipedia:


Capitalism is an economic system and a mode of production in which trade, industries, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned and operated for profit.[1][2] Central characteristics of capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labor and, in many models, competitive markets.[3] In a capitalist economy, the parties to a transaction typically determine the prices at which assets, goods, and services are exchanged.[4]


You will notice clearly that it states "parties to a transaction" determine prices. Not a manufacture

Capitalism is nothing more than distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market.

Mega manufactures and retailers do not have a monopoly on capitalism. Me and by brother can exchange goods based on fair market value and we are participating in a capitalist economy.

"Supply is the amount of a good or service produced by a firm and which is available for sale. Demand is the amount that people are willing to buy at a specific price. Prices tend to rise when demand exceeds supply, and fall when supply exceeds demand. In theory, the market is able to coordinate itself when a new equilibrium price and quantity is reached."


"Scalpers" as you want to call them are not black market, they are the true market. They are actually less than half of the equation though because without strong demand from a buyer willing to pay the price the seller is irrelevant. They, the buyer, is what is determining the amount of available goods for sale and at what price NOT THE SELLER. The Buyer ALWAYS sets the price of a transaction. The fewer of the goods/higher demand the higher the price to balance the equation


I can price a pile of stuff at a million dollars, If someone will only pay $20 for it then it will never sell. The BUYER determines what is fair market value by trading his money for it and once that transaction has been made FAIR MARKET VALUE has been established. FAIR MARKET VALUE is determined by a transaction, not what you feel or think is fair. Something is worth exactly what someone will pay, nothing less, nothing more and is subjective in each individual transaction.

Pretty much nothing in your argument is actually relevant to how laissez faire markets work.



lais·sez-faire
ˌlesā ˈfer/
noun
noun: laissez-faire
a policy or attitude of letting things take their own course, without interfering

 

[jbett98]

Here's a different marketing strategy.

 

[Joe13]

"I still got it on me dog" - I was laughing before but that killed it lol

 

[albin25]

laissez-faire "the complete non-intervention by Government in business", hardly describes the realities of todays economy.
" Me and by brother can exchange goods based on fair market value and we are participating in a capitalist economy." Free market actually...and how would your brother feel if he knew you bought all the available item you knew he wanted and then priced it to him at double or triple what you paid?

If you believe scalpers aren't a black market by buying almost half of a products output (that they don't need) only to sell to those who do at rip-off prices...we're going to need to agree to disagree. (yet, still continue agreeing on a lot of other stuff)

We would all have bytched and moaned about manufacturers screwing us...but, if they would have raised their 22 prices to scalper levels 18 months, ago this whole "shortage" would probably have ended and retail prices would once again be responding to true demand and other actual market forces like material and labor costs. I am left to wonder why they (any of them), didn't do something early-on to alleviate the problem....and maybe that's the real issue here. Why has there been no pushback from the ammo makers? What do they know that we don't? Maybe the growth of online sellers has something to do with it?
Part of my frustration comes from living within a 1000 yards of CCI/Speer/ATK that makes millions of rim fire rounds per DAY, yet there is no 22lr Blazer or MiniMags to be found within a hundred miles.

We may agree on...
If scalpers were doing the same thing to the beer or whiskey markets...
.... they would very quickly be, "sleepin' wit' da fishes !"

 

[40calruler]

At any rate, whatever the reason, I think we can all agree that we are pretty tired of this situation that has been dragging on for the better part of 3 YEARS now.

I think that simply sums up my frustration. All the other garbage is just garbage. I just want to walk into bimart like I used to knowing I would walk out with a 525 brick for 15 to 20 bucks. Then I will shut up about it. Only then.

 

[40calruler]

Oh and and Bi Mart last night the guy told me that 22wmr is not even being made right now since 22lr is "backing up the factories so much". Ok I am no ammo pro but in a factory that does make both would they not have to use different machines for the 2 different rounds? I know what he said is not true since I have been told in my search a few times "had some in last week" from other stores. Again someone who just cannot handle the words "I don't know".

 

[40calruler]

Makes shooting reloaded .38 spl and .357 mag attractive cost wise. I'm good for that until this silliness stops.

For me it makes shooting all other calibers attractive. I have practiced so much more with 38, .357, 9, and 40 in the last couple years at least I feel like all my carry guns I know inside and out of exactly where to line those sights up rather than taking a few shots that hit decently and thinking "he would be dead..good enough".

 

[Joe13]

Not to earn the ire of the members I respect and don't but just to give everyone a heads up…

I'll be posting a small amount of ammo for sale here around noon that will include a bit of .22LR and .22 WMR. Won't be bargain priced but it's local I guess.

Cheers,

Joe

 

[40calruler]

.22 wmr would be wonderful for this guy. If its not straight up gauger prices I will take a couple boxes at minimum.

 

[IronMonster]

" Me and by brother can exchange goods based on fair market value and we are participating in a capitalist economy." Free market actually...and how would your brother feel if he knew you bought all the available item you knew he wanted and then priced it to him at double or triple what you paid?

If you believe scalpers aren't a black market by buying almost half of a products output (that they don't need) only to sell to those who do at rip-off prices...we're going to need to agree to disagree. (yet, still continue agreeing on a lot of other stuff)

Actually my brother is happy to participate in such transactions and does frequently.

He works for Boeing and gets surplus items for a tiny fraction of fair market value, I then buy them for three or four times as much, which is still half as much as what they are really worth. There is no difference between that and selling him ammo that is now worth more than what I paid. I am happy to buy, he is happy to sell. We set the price between us at what we both see as fair. Capitalism at work!


I have a easy 50,000 rds of .22lr. I don't think there is any I paid more than .03/rd for. Much of it I bought for more like .02/rd. I have neither bought or sold any during the panic (I have given quite a lot away). However by your logic if I chose to sell some I should only get .03/rd or I am an evil basterd. What if I bought gold and the price went up. Am I then a scalper if I sell for the fair market value? How about a house?

In my mind it comes down to people not thinking it's fair. It has nothing to do with understanding economics. It's about morals. Is it scrupulous to buy now and sell it at inflated prices? Not for me to say as every situation is different. If a guy is a scumbag he is a scumbag no matter what he is asking for his pile of .22. If a guy is my friend and a good guy he is no matter what he wants to sell his possessions he spent his own money to acquire. It does not mean I have to like the price, buy it, or that he is a scumbag based on a price alone which is what most seem to imply

 

[40calruler]

I complain about people selling it but hey if you are able to find it and make money on it that takes some work these days. I may be mad at you but I cannot hate you for doing anything that is a legal means of extra cash. Besides that I simply normally will never pay the prices people ask so why complain.

I agree that its no different than anything else. Gold goes up and down daily. I bought some for 1100 an ounce years ago and then sold for nearly 2k a bar when it shot up a few years back. Does that make me evil or smart for waiting out the market. .22 is no different to me as far as I will sell things for what people will pay. If they are happy and it puts more in my bank why would anyone choose to lose money? If I know you and like you I will give ya some .22 but a stranger would pay some extra at least if I ever needed to sell 22lr...Now if only I had been smart enough to horde 22wmr back in the day as I did with lr.